Israel and the Palestinians

[carver]

How does a person become a Palestinian? There is no such country!

[Buckshot]

The region known as Palestine dates to antiquity and encompassed much of the area. And there ARE Palestinian people. But they are such largely because of their ties to the area. Surprisingly, a large percentage of Palestinian Muslim Arabs and Israeli Jews are closely related genetically. The idea of an actual independent Palestinian state came much, much later, and while officially recognized by most of the world, is obviously still heavily contested in the region.

[Iron Eagle]

If you look up Palestinian in the dictionary, it is the same as the phillistines, which was and still is bad news for the Israelis.

[carver]

The region known as Palestine was bought, and paid for, by King David. The land belongs to Israel. A Palestinian is nothing more than a muslim moving in on what rightfully belongs to Israel, but was taken from them. A Palestinian can come from any muslim country, and they have no ties to the Gaza strip before they moved in there! And the purpose is to keep from Israel what is rightfully theirs. Any muslim will tell you that Israel has to go, and that all Jews must die. For that matter all Christians must die too! So how do you become a Palestinian?

[GunnyGene]

Arguing over who got to some patch of dirt first is pointless. What counts is: Can you hold what you've got?

[carver]

Gunny, I agree with you up to a point. I know that if you can't hold it, you loose it. But legally speaking, the land belongs to Israel. There are two factions working against Israel here. One is war, and the other is in the courts of the world. They can hold it in one scenario, and loose it in the other. Israel is important to those of us who believe in the Bible. We believe that as Israel goes, so goes the world.

[GunnyGene]

Originally Posted by carver

Gunny, I agree with you up to a point. I know that if you can't hold it, you loose it. But legally speaking, the land belongs to Israel. There are two factions working against Israel here. One is war, and the other is in the courts of the world. They can hold it in one scenario, and loose it in the other. Israel is important to those of us who believe in the Bible. We believe that as Israel goes, so goes the world.

Who's 'legality'? By your logic, the people who inhabited that land before the Jews would have a 'legal' claim also, would they not?

PS: While I respect your beliefs (and those of other cultures, past, present and future), I'm not inclined to argue on that basis.

[carver]

Originally Posted by GunnyGene

Who's 'legality'? By your logic, the people who inhabited that land before the Jews would have a 'legal' claim also, would they not? They sold it to King David.

PS: While I respect your beliefs (and those of other cultures, past, present and future), I'm not inclined to argue on that basis.

[al45lc]

Legally speaking, this land belongs to the native americans.
Based on THAT nonsense, the whole world would be topsy-turvy.
Gunny's right, and frankly I think it's high time the Israelies just showed the world what they have learned from the rest of us, as Shakespeare pointed out in 'The Merchant of Venice', and as Shylock said "better the instruction".
Arguing with the Bible to a Muslim is useless, arguing with a gun is the only constructive take, for Muslims hold no honor towards any other peoples.

[GunnyGene]

Carver, I don't think so. My recollection is that the land was conquered thru very bloody warfare. I can't find any reference to Canaan being 'sold' to David or anyone else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#...e_Hebrew_Bible . There are other links also if you care to follow the trail.

[MSGT-R]

Then the Romans still own it. They vacated at the collapse of the empire, not through any victories of the Israelits...

No matter what Israel does, the Palestinians will never be happy.. and they call us the barbarians!?!

[firefighter1635]

Originally Posted by carver

How does a person become a Palestinian? There is no such country!

Kinda like if a bunch of libtards got together and wanted say, Chicago, as their Country. They boot everyone that's not a libtard out and call it.....Obozoland. Now it's not Chicago it's Obozoland, free to do what they want independant of the United States and their called Obozoanians. Wait a minute.......

[Jerryboy]

God gave the land to Israel, but through their stubborn disobedience and foolishness they lost it, and now they have to take it back and keep it.

[al45lc]

Originally Posted by firefighter1635

Kinda like if a bunch of libtards got together and wanted say, Chicago, as their Country. They boot everyone that's not a libtard out and call it.....Obozoland. Now it's not Chicago it's Obozoland, free to do what they want independant of the United States and their called Obozoanians. Wait a minute.......

An interesting idea, but when their form of Govt doesn't work,(as we know will happen) they will just cross the border, and demand benefits.

[carver]

Originally Posted by GunnyGene

Carver, I don't think so. My recollection is that the land was conquered thru very bloody warfare. I can't find any reference to Canaan being 'sold' to David or anyone else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#...e_Hebrew_Bible . There are other links also if you care to follow the trail.

He didn't buy the whole area, he bought the land where the temple was built. A muslim victory mosque now stands on that site. 2 Samuel 24:24 However, the Jewish people have always had a population in this land. It was never abandonded, just occupied by different Nations, over thousands of years. This land was given to the people of Israel, and God will keep his word, and they will occupy it again. The question though is, how does a person become a palestinian? If there is no country called Palestine, then obviously, now one can be from there.

[GunnyGene]

Originally Posted by carver

He didn't buy the whole area, he bought the land where the temple was built. A muslim victory mosque now stands on that site. 2 Samuel 24:24 However, the Jewish people have always had a population in this land. It was never abandonded, just occupied by different Nations, over thousands of years. This land was given to the people of Israel, and God will keep his word, and they will occupy it again. The question though is, how does a person become a palestinian? If there is no country called Palestine, then obviously, now one can be from there.

That still doesn't answer the question of various peoples who occupied that area long before Abraham. The oldest known habitation, according to archeological evidence, was the Natufian Hunter-Gatherers c. 10,000 BCE . Jericho has evidence of settlement dating back to 9000 BCE. During the Younger Dryas period of cold and drought, permanent habitation of any one location was not possible. However, the spring at what would become Jericho was a popular camping ground for Natufian hunter-gatherer groups, who left a scattering of crescent microlith tools behind them. Around 9600 BCE the droughts and cold of the Younger Dryas Stadial had come to an end, making it possible for Natufian groups to extend the duration of their stay, eventually leading to year round habitation and permanent settlement.

Subsequent to that was more or less permanent habitation up to the current day. What is thought of as the Israeli culture (the first united Kingdom of Israel) didn't appear until around 1020BCE.

Saying that David bought a small plot that was purchased from "somebody" is insufficient evidence of some "legal" claim to the entire area.

Edit: A little more research shows that King David conquered Jebus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

[carver]

Now you're arguing just to be arguing. Even if a person is not a Christian he/she knows that God gave this land to Abraham, no matter who was there at the time. Since the days of Abraham the Jewish people have lived there. Why do you suppose the muslims hate the Jews so bad? There are no Palestinians, because there is no such country. http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html

[GunnyGene]

Not at all. Just trying to point out that tracing the history of human habitation of any plot of land is not a simple matter, and that the normal process is that one group shows up in some previously uninhabited area and claims it as their own until some other group shows up and takes it away from them (or tries to). Sometimes there is assimilation, sometimes not. Along with that is a variety of reasons put forth on one side or the other, that may or may not include appeals to some deity or another. As I mentioned earlier, I respect your beliefs, but Christianity (and related monotheism's) is not the only religion humanity has embraced throughout our history, and will probably not be the last.

[carver]

OK, show me the other religion that gives this land to Palestinians! Prove to me that a Country called Palestine ever existed! Fact is, you can't! No matter how hard you try there is no way can refute facts. It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

[GunnyGene]

Originally Posted by carver

OK, show me the other religion that gives this land to Palestinians! Prove to me that a Country called Palestine ever existed! Fact is, you can't! No matter how hard you try there is no way can refute facts. It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

I haven't claimed that that land was ever given to Palestinians. Simply that it was inhabited by other groups of humans long before there were any Israeli's or others that are labeled as Palestinians.

But this is going nowhere, so let's just drop it, ok?

[carver]

Gunny, the whole point of this thread was the original question. I have no doubt that there were different peoples that inhabited the land before Abraham. That was never the point. It was simply, How does a person become a Palestinian?

[MSGT-R]

Ummm.. be of Arab descent, Islamic and declare it?

[jbmid1]

This passage pretty well sums it up. Genesis ch.13.

The Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your [l]descendants forever. 16 I will make your [m]descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your [n]descendants can also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you.”

and this from Genesis ch. 15.

12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, [p]terror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your [q]descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, [r]where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. 14 But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with [s]many possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”
17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,


“To your [t]descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”

note the colored section. God wanted the original inhabatants removed because of their iniquities, the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah give some insights into that.

I believe this passage gives us the origin of the palestinian people and the rest of Islam. If you've ever had the distinct pleasure of being lectured on Islam by anybody familiar with it, you know that they accept Ishmael as the promised one and reject Isaac, and insert Ishmael into the story where God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son.
from Gen. ch. 16

Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name [k]Ishmael,
Because the Lord [l]has given heed to your affliction.
12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man,
His hand will be against everyone,
And everyone’s hand will be against him;
And he will [m]live [n]to the east of all his brothers.”

And ch. 17
what does the word "everlasting" mean to you?

17 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,


“I am [a]God Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be [b]blameless.
2 “I will [c]establish My covenant between Me and you,
And I will multiply you exceedingly.”

3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,


4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
5 “No longer shall your name be called [d]Abram,
But your name shall be [e]Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your [f]descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your [g]descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your [h]descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

[tango1niner]

I just love the way Isrealis take care of business, no BS. They are fighting for their lives.