Weird Issue - The Firearms Forum

FTK87 · 06-14-2009, 06:58 PM

I decided to go ahead and load my last 14 Hornady 165 gr bonded interlock bullets for my .30-06 the other day, since it was so few rounds that I decided to play with the headspacing a little. I wanted to see what the longest OAL I could get into the chamber. my reloading manual, the second edition of Modern Reloading, says that for a 165 grain jacketed bullet the minimum OAL is 3.300" so I started out making them 3.320, that wouldn't fit and I didn't try hard to make it fit. I should also mention these are going through a bolt action rifle and I didn't bother crimping them. so I go back seat the bullets to 3.310, still to long. I go back and seat to 3.300, as the manual states as minimum OAL. When I go to chamber the minimum rounds, they did not want to fit, down right mad now I racked the bolt hard and it closed. When I opend it back up to eject the bullet, because of the cannelure I could tell it was shorter, The chamber seated the uncrimped bullet at 3.220. Is this a foul up in the manual or should I not try these rounds in my rifle? If you are wondering the rifle is a savage 110.

Thanks,
Kyle

Popgunner · 06-14-2009, 07:30 PM

MOAL in rifle data is usually Max overall length (handgun MOAL is usually Minimum). Try chambering an empty, re-sized case. Your cases may need trimming. You may need to be checking to see how far off the lands your bullets are.

FTK87 · 06-14-2009, 07:50 PM

I trimmed the cases already, I always trim them when moving that much brass. I could see someone misinturperting the abbrieviations, but in my book it is marked as "min. OAL" so that kind of rules that out. How can I check how far off the lands my bullets are? I'm kinda new to this (only about 7 months) do I need a special guage to check that?

22WRF · 06-14-2009, 09:21 PM

Seat one at 3.300 uncrimped color the bullet with a magic marker or sharpie
then close the bolt as before. When extracted you can see the land marks then you can work from there

FTK87 · 06-14-2009, 09:29 PM

as said before, the a bullet seated at 3.300 uncrimped, in my gun, is going to be pushed down to 3.220. Is that test to see where the lands land still going to work with the bullet being pushed back that far? pardon my ignorance, like I said i'm realativly new at this.

22WRF · 06-14-2009, 09:39 PM

That will show you that the bullet is contacting the lands when it was pushed back. You may want to play with it backing off the lands a bit more a little at a time depending on how it shoots. It may shoot better just off a couple of 1000's. Remember factory loads are a nominal OAL that is short of the lands due the difference in chambers from gun to gun.
If the is a hunting rifle off the lands a bit is no big deal a bench rifle is an other story.

FTK87 · 06-14-2009, 10:27 PM

This is just a hunting rifle, but theres just somthing about being able to say my rifles shoots straighter than your rifle, you know?

But that will show if I need to back off the lands a little, but it also takes us back to the main issue. My book says the Minimum OAL is 3.300, my rifle wont chambe anything longer than 3.220. My main concern is if that is going to up the pressure or have someother adverse side effect?

Popgunner · 06-14-2009, 10:30 PM

Different bullets have different ogives. It's easy to seat bullets using most manuals because they talk about a specific bullet. It's harder with the Lee manuals because they only list by bullet weight. 22WRF has it right recomending using a marker & checking where the bullet is from the rifling. You usually don't start with the bullet right on the lands but back at least something like .030".

FTK87 · 06-14-2009, 10:32 PM

Ok, I will give that a try.

What you mentioned about lee manuals, that is the only thing that bothers me, other than that issue I've never had a problem with them.

LDBennett · 06-15-2009, 07:45 AM

FTK87:

The best source for Cartridge Overall Length is the bullet manufacturer's manual. That is because, as Popgunner said, the ogives are different on different manufacturer's bullets of the same or similar weight.

In this case the Hornady manual says the COL for the 165 grain IB bullet is 3.230 inches. It appears this is even too long for your guns chamber and that is unusually if it is a name brand commercial gun. In my experience when I found a gun that would not accept the standard length cartridges it was a manufacturing error in my gun that was the problem. They had forgotten to use the final throat reamer when they chambered the barrel. Browning fixed it at the factory for me. A close inspection of the chamber revealed a sharp edge at the point in the chamber that was suppose to be a taper from the chamber to the bore.

What you need to do if the chamber inspection reveals a good correctly done chamber is to find the length of cartridge where the bullet lightly touches the rifling. Then position the bullet back at least a couple of thousands of an inch from there and up to 0.060 inches shorter yet. Positioning the bullet in the case makes an accuracy difference but most often the best accuracy is obtained from sitting the bullet a couple of thousands off the rifling engagement point. No matter where you put the bullet be sure to start at the starting load level and work up from there as pressures are impacted by where the bullet is in the case and how long it takes for the bullet to travel in the barrel and engage the rifling.

LDBennett

06-14-2009, 06:58 PM	#1
FTK87 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chouteau, Oklahoma Posts: 481	Weird Issue I decided to go ahead and load my last 14 Hornady 165 gr bonded interlock bullets for my .30-06 the other day, since it was so few rounds that I decided to play with the headspacing a little. I wanted to see what the longest OAL I could get into the chamber. my reloading manual, the second edition of Modern Reloading, says that for a 165 grain jacketed bullet the minimum OAL is 3.300" so I started out making them 3.320, that wouldn't fit and I didn't try hard to make it fit. I should also mention these are going through a bolt action rifle and I didn't bother crimping them. so I go back seat the bullets to 3.310, still to long. I go back and seat to 3.300, as the manual states as minimum OAL. When I go to chamber the minimum rounds, they did not want to fit, down right mad now I racked the bolt hard and it closed. When I opend it back up to eject the bullet, because of the cannelure I could tell it was shorter, The chamber seated the uncrimped bullet at 3.220. Is this a foul up in the manual or should I not try these rounds in my rifle? If you are wondering the rifle is a savage 110. Thanks, Kyle -->

06-14-2009, 07:30 PM	#2
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Weird Issue MOAL in rifle data is usually Max overall length (handgun MOAL is usually Minimum). Try chambering an empty, re-sized case. Your cases may need trimming. You may need to be checking to see how far off the lands your bullets are.

06-14-2009, 07:50 PM	#3
FTK87 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chouteau, Oklahoma Posts: 481	Re: Weird Issue I trimmed the cases already, I always trim them when moving that much brass. I could see someone misinturperting the abbrieviations, but in my book it is marked as "min. OAL" so that kind of rules that out. How can I check how far off the lands my bullets are? I'm kinda new to this (only about 7 months) do I need a special guage to check that?

06-14-2009, 09:21 PM	#4
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,271	Re: Weird Issue Seat one at 3.300 uncrimped color the bullet with a magic marker or sharpie then close the bolt as before. When extracted you can see the land marks then you can work from there __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

06-14-2009, 09:29 PM	#5
FTK87 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chouteau, Oklahoma Posts: 481	Re: Weird Issue as said before, the a bullet seated at 3.300 uncrimped, in my gun, is going to be pushed down to 3.220. Is that test to see where the lands land still going to work with the bullet being pushed back that far? pardon my ignorance, like I said i'm realativly new at this.

06-14-2009, 09:39 PM	#6
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,271	Re: Weird Issue That will show you that the bullet is contacting the lands when it was pushed back. You may want to play with it backing off the lands a bit more a little at a time depending on how it shoots. It may shoot better just off a couple of 1000's. Remember factory loads are a nominal OAL that is short of the lands due the difference in chambers from gun to gun. If the is a hunting rifle off the lands a bit is no big deal a bench rifle is an other story. __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

06-14-2009, 10:27 PM	#7
FTK87 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chouteau, Oklahoma Posts: 481	Re: Weird Issue This is just a hunting rifle, but theres just somthing about being able to say my rifles shoots straighter than your rifle, you know? But that will show if I need to back off the lands a little, but it also takes us back to the main issue. My book says the Minimum OAL is 3.300, my rifle wont chambe anything longer than 3.220. My main concern is if that is going to up the pressure or have someother adverse side effect?

06-14-2009, 10:30 PM	#8
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Weird Issue Different bullets have different ogives. It's easy to seat bullets using most manuals because they talk about a specific bullet. It's harder with the Lee manuals because they only list by bullet weight. 22WRF has it right recomending using a marker & checking where the bullet is from the rifling. You usually don't start with the bullet right on the lands but back at least something like .030".

06-14-2009, 10:32 PM	#9
FTK87 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chouteau, Oklahoma Posts: 481	Re: Weird Issue Ok, I will give that a try. What you mentioned about lee manuals, that is the only thing that bothers me, other than that issue I've never had a problem with them.

06-15-2009, 07:45 AM	#10
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,754	Re: Weird Issue FTK87: The best source for Cartridge Overall Length is the bullet manufacturer's manual. That is because, as Popgunner said, the ogives are different on different manufacturer's bullets of the same or similar weight. In this case the Hornady manual says the COL for the 165 grain IB bullet is 3.230 inches. It appears this is even too long for your guns chamber and that is unusually if it is a name brand commercial gun. In my experience when I found a gun that would not accept the standard length cartridges it was a manufacturing error in my gun that was the problem. They had forgotten to use the final throat reamer when they chambered the barrel. Browning fixed it at the factory for me. A close inspection of the chamber revealed a sharp edge at the point in the chamber that was suppose to be a taper from the chamber to the bore. What you need to do if the chamber inspection reveals a good correctly done chamber is to find the length of cartridge where the bullet lightly touches the rifling. Then position the bullet back at least a couple of thousands of an inch from there and up to 0.060 inches shorter yet. Positioning the bullet in the case makes an accuracy difference but most often the best accuracy is obtained from sitting the bullet a couple of thousands off the rifling engagement point. No matter where you put the bullet be sure to start at the starting load level and work up from there as pressures are impacted by where the bullet is in the case and how long it takes for the bullet to travel in the barrel and engage the rifling. LDBennett