22-250 Re-Loading Questions

[Kevro869]

Hey guys you’re going to have to excuse the moisture behind my ears, but I have many questions about reloading.

First off, is it normal for a 22-250 case to crack like this after only a few reloads? I’ve been around re-loaders for the better part of my life, which has been mostly a handgun cartridge. I’ve never seen a case crack horizontally…

The load:

37.5 GR Hodgdon 380
55 GR Winchester FMJ

The Rifle:

TC Encore

[Kevro869]

Today's results at 200M (218.7 Yards).

10 rounds fired.

26" barrel with a 1 in 12" twist.

I'm thinkin' the shooter just sucks ass...That would be me...

[Kevro869]

Oops...The attachment...

[Ronald J. Snow]

My opinion.....you appear to have what is known as "incipient head seperation". This is caused by either excessive head-space in your firearm or you are using an incorrectly adjusted resizing die.
With your choice of firearm (TC Encore) I would doubt you have a headspace problem with the firearm. It looks like you might be full length resizing your cases and are setting the the shoulder back too far thereby causing your cartridge to be unsupported. In other words, you are resizing your cases and making them too short. I would try neck sizing and see if this corrects the problem. Ron

[inplanotx]

I agree with Ron. You should have been able to see this before it separated though. It appears as a shiney ring before it lets loose. You can check your cases by straightening a paper clip and filing a point on one end. Then bend a section near the tip to a 90 degree angle that will fit through the case neck. Hold the cartridge and slide the paper clip down the wall of the case. It separation is immenent, you will feel a valley with the sharpened tip of the clip. You did not say how many times the case was reloaded, but according to my new Hodgdon reloading manual, your load is 1/2 grain Over Maximum listed by them for the 55gr bullet with H380! Being over max load may also explain why you cannot get a group out off that load. Faster is not necessarily more accurate!

[Kevro869]

Thank you both for responding so quickly.

I agree with both you when you say the problem lies with the shoulder. However when chambering a reloaded (after full length resizing) cartridge the rifle will not close. I believe this would be a sign that the case is too long because the shoulder is improperly resized. The only adjustment I know of is to bring the die in to contact with the shell plate. Any suggestions?

The load data I used is right on the container. 41 grains is the max for 55 gr. bullet.

Again thanks for your time and wisdom!

Kev

[Ronald J. Snow]

Try something for me.

Set up your dies per the manufacturers instructions as I do not know what brand you are using.

Resize a casing and check to see if the case needs trimming and trim if necessary.

Now insert the unloaded casing into the chamber and see if the rifle will close.

If it closes then seat a bullet into the casing (do not prime or add powder).

Now insert this dummy cartridge into the chamber and see if the rifle closes. If it does not close then try seating the bullet deeper into the casing a small amount and repeat until it does.

Let us know if and how this works for you.

[inplanotx]

That is very interesting. Here is Hodgdon's 26th edition data manual page 124. I would call Hodgdon and ask them why there is such a discrepancy!

My Lee reloading manual lists H380 with 55 gr Max at 37 grains.

This is interesting to say the least. My Speer manual lists 55 gr bullet with H380 start at 38 gr Max at 42 Compressed load with magnum primer. Go figure!

[Kevro869]

Okay guys here’s the latest:

I cleaned, trimmed, lubed and then full length resized 40 cases. Only eight would chamber properly. The reloading equipment is all Lee. Perhaps a resizing die from a different manufacturer would help?

Thanks

Kev

[inplanotx]

Please tell us what dies you are using and how you adjust the sizing die. If this is a used die, you may want to take it apart and clean the upper half (shoulder area) with carb cleaner or Hoppes.
Let us know.

[Craig]

I had the same thing happen to some of my 44 mag. cases. I figured it was just bad brass. Thanks for the ideas.

[Kevro869]

Hodgdon 22-250 Reloading Data

[Kevro869]

I have backed all the other dies out to insure that the resizing die is setup properly which merely entails that the shell plate meets the die.

[inplanotx]

Well, that being the case, I would call Lee and explain what is happening to them. I know RCBS asks that you send 5 fired cases and the sizing die to them and they will recut the die. I do not know what Lee will do. Have you tried factory ammo in your rifle? I would fire 5 factory rounds and then resize them and try them in the rifle. You may have some bad brass also. Where did you get the brass? Let us know.

I use mainly RCBS rifle dies. They tell you to adjust the sizer die until it touches the shell holder with the ram up. Drop the ram and add 1/8 to a 1/4 more of a turn and lock the die. This accounts for the camming action of the press.

[LDBennett]

Kevro869:

I am currently reading Richard Lee's reloading book. Very near the beginning he states that Lee dies should be set up different than others. He insists that the die is set up to just touch the case holder then turn in another 1/4 to 1/3 turn. He claims Lee dies are different than all others and need to be set up differently.

I personally use RCBS gages to measure the distance from the reference point on the shoulder to the primer end of the case. I measure the fireformed cases and set up my die to push the shoulder back just about 0.001 thousands from that dimension.

I wonder if the chamber is cut right from the factory. I have a Browning that missed one of several chamber reaming operations and would push a correct length round's bullet into the case when the bolt closed and jam the bullet into the barrel's lands. That does terrible thing to the pressure when fired. I solved the problem by sending the gun back to Browning who corrected the problem by fininshing the chamber correctly. Their local Browning gunsmithing station could not understand the problem and only reluctantly sent it to Browning for me when I proved beyond a doubt what was happening. A close inspection of the chamber, when armed with the understanding that the bullet was jambing into the lans, revealed a sharp transisiton from the chamber to the rifling rather than a tapered transistion.

As for the amount of H380, the data published must be followed the exactly, including primer, exact bullet, and the correct overall cartridge length. But the difference between 37 and 41 grains is enormous. The bottle data must be wrong!


LDBennett

[inplanotx]

I think the bottle data is right as I and Ron have llooked at the Hodgdon site and they are the same as the canister loads. I think that my book is about 3 years old and they changed the data.

One other thought. Look at the crown and see if there are nicks or dings in the crown. If so, that would also cause the wide open groups.

[Kevro869]

Okay guys here is a little food for thought.

The original brass was factory Winchester ammo. Neck sizing was sufficient the first time around, however subsequent reloads would not chamber even after trimming and FL resizing.

New Winchester brass and a headspace gauge came today. The top photo is the old resized brass. I’ve got 20 rounds loaded for tomorrow using new brass; ten using the cheap Winchester 55 Gr. Fmjs and ten tipped with Hornady’s supreme 52 Gr. A-Max. Both packed with 39 grains of H-380.

Wish me luck!

As usual thanks for your patience and sage advice!!

Kev

[inplanotx]

Kev,
Seeing that, I would recommend taking that rifle to a gunsmith and having him check the headspace with go-no go guages. There appears to be so much case stretching that that may be your problem. Just to be sure, I would do it before I fire it again.

What is the length of that fired case? It appears to be too long.

[Kevro869]

Thanks for all help and suggestions!

I was watching the press while FL resizing a case and noticed that on the progressive style press the shell plate would cock to the side a bit. So I tried the FL die in an older turret style press where the ram is directly below the case. Problem solved!! I haven’t had any problems with elongated or splitting brass. The brass I’m using now has five reloads on the odometer and it looks great.

Next Question:

I just received OAL gauge from Stoney Point that precisely measures how far out a bullet can be set before it touches the rifling. What is a good starting distance? How much of the bullet should remain in the neck of the case? Keep in mind I am looking for an accurate target-only cartridge.

Sunday’s Results:

Bullet: Winchester 55 GR. FMJ
Powder: 36 GR. Winchester 748
Distance: 327 yards (300M)

[inplanotx]

Kev, glad you found the problem. In looking at your load, you seem to like loads near the max level. My advice would be to drop down several grains and work your way up a half grain at a time looking for groups. After all, you are looking to punch paper, not varmits. Back off and see what happens! Good luck and keep us posted.

Next time post your target with a quarter as reference so we can see the size of the group better. Hard to tell from that type target!

[Kevro869]

Hi All!

Lately I have had improved my groups substantially using a 52 GR. Hornady match grade bullet and then a 60 GR. FMJHP also made by Hornady.

For the sake of experimentation I decided to try Hornady’s 68 GR. BTHP. The powder of choice was H- 414 (first time) using 34 grains, which according to my load data is two grains above minimum. The bullet is specifically meant for use with barrels cut for a 7 – 10” twist rate. The 26” Encore barrel I am using has a twist rate of 1 in 12”. COL was set at 3.090. The bullet touches the rifling at 3.120. No crimp was used.

On Saturday I shot ten rounds at the usual 300 m berm. Nothing, not even a scratch! I fell back to 100 m berm only to find the same results. Finally the gentleman next me to offered to spot my shots while I fired at a single bowling pin half way up the muddy berm making it easy to see where the bullets were resting. My aim was almost a foot high and another foot to the left; which doesn’t make any sense considering there was very little scope adjustment required between the 52 and 60 grain bullets. I never hit paper at all.

Sunday – Loaded 20 more rounds using the same configuration, but I decided to use a little trick that merely consists of firing from 15 feet to see where the bullet is striking directly out of the barrel. This is were it gets weird. The bullet hit the target but it was completely sideways.

What would cause the bullet to flip end over end right out of the barrel?

I understand that technically the twist rate of the barrel is too slow, but I think it would still be fairly accurate at close range. WTF?

Thanks for your time,

Kev

[LDBennett]

Kev:

What you have is clasic unstabilized bullets. The twist rate is way too slow for that heavy bullet. This is the same concept we see when we throw a football. If the spin is wrong it leaves our hands wobbling. Short range, long range, no difference. The bullet is still wobbling.

Rather than jump arround with various bullet types why don't you pick one bullet (for target work pick a match bullet within the twist rate of your barrel). Make up several batches of cartridges, each with a different powder load. Vary them by 1/2 grain but don't exceed maximum. Keep all else the same. Shoot three groups of five at each powder level, seperate the loads in plastic baggies including the fired brass, and keep accurate records. Inspect the fired casses individually to look for signs of excessive pressure, especially those close to the max levels. Find the powder level that gives the smallest group. With that powder level try changing only the bullet's distance to the lands. Seperate baggies, at least three five shot groups at each bullet distance. Start at just touching the lands to no more than about 1/16 inch off the lands. Some people go in 0.005 inch increments. Personally I have found that most bullets shoot best when just touching the lands. Next try various brands of primers with the above selected small group powder level.

When you are done with this set of test pick another powder and the same bullet and start again. Next change bullets and powders and brass, etc. As you can see this testing can go on forever. I test using the bullet that common sense tells me will do the job (usually match), named brand brass, Winchester primers (most readily available in my area), Hodgdon powders (ball powders work best through my Dillon press). I limit the testing because I find it boring. I always vary the powder charge level and may change powders if I can't get the first choice to shoot well enough. I try to get to less than an inch at 100 yds and call that good enough.

But I find that my technique on the bench effects everything. I don't get that right and it impacts the group size. Some guns like to be held tightly, some loosely. But consistency of postion and hold for every shot is the key. And believe me that is hard to do. I see someone makes a bench rest that is held to the bench and that you don't even have to touch the gun. That is the right way to do it!

LDBennett

[Kevro869]

Hey Guys,

Long time no see!

For Chistmas I bought myself a Hornady GS-350 digital scale. Works good except for the fact that the plastic pan (or myself) seems to charge with static electricity making the powder stick inside the pan. Any ideas on how to discharge?

Thanks

Kevin

[inplanotx]

There are two ways to go about stopping static electricity. The first is with a wrist grounding strap. Can usually find them in any large electronics supply house. Make sure you have a good earth ground to attach too. It is the green screw in an outlet box.

The second is a commercial static spray.

Good luck. That is why I like the Dillon and RCBS measures, they have metal (aluminum) powder cups. No problem with those. See if you can buy the metal cup from Dillon or RCBS.

If you ever try to measure black powder, static electricity WILL set it off. Be very careful!!!!!! Black Powder is a Class A Explosive.

[Kevro869]

I am trying to figure the standard deviation of my load. Using the formula below I end up with a negative figure. The velocities are attached. Help...








Standard Deviation, population, (-Sd-)
Multiply the square of the average velocity by the number of shots and deduct it from the sum of the squares of all shot velocities, then divide this total by the number of shots minus 1, and then take the square root of this figure. For example:
[(2990 + 3010 +2996 + 3004 - 4 x 3000) ÷ (4-1)]½= 9 FPS