50K shots to 1kill

[cycloneman]

Over the past weekend I went to TX to do some hunting and well deserved drinking. At the camp fire a discussion arose about a statistic. I heard that the U.S. military shoots 50K rounds to 1 Kill. Do you think this is true?

[Bruce FLinch]

I had seen some stats a few years back. Compared how many rounds were fired per kill from WWI to Viet Nam. Viet Nam was about 100 times higher round count than WWI.

[cycloneman]

this brings up a good question. Is full auto necessary? I expect yes in a fire fight you need a 30 cal constantly making noise, but what about the guys with 16's? shouldn't they be aiming and using 1 or a 3 shot burst to be more effective. just a thought

[ponycar17]

Full-autos were originally meant for fire-suppression as I understood it.... Constant thumping from an M60 keeps the bad-guys' heads down and therefore prevents continued casualties on our front. I won't say that the statistics are correct or not (because I don't know) but I would say that constant machine gun fire serves its purpose in today's military. I'd rather pay for the rounds expended than the lives expended.

[300 H&H]

"Spray and pray" has been going on for years. Not that this technique doesn't have meritt in some situations....... But is hard on ammo supplies! I have read too about the number of round per kill going way up with semi and full auto arms. 3 shot burst, makes alot of sence. JMHO, Kirk

[muddober]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

Over the past weekend I went to TX to do some hunting and well deserved drinking. At the camp fire a discussion arose about a statistic. I heard that the U.S. military shoots 50K rounds to 1 Kill. Do you think this is true?

Just a guess would tell me that is true especially when you consider the rate of fire and the amount of Gatling type guns that utilize aircraft plateforms.

[LurpyGeek]

Does this include rounds expended in training?

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by LurpyGeek

Does this include rounds expended in training?

No. I believe the guy that told me this really believes it. Dont know where he got it from. We were drinking and I did not ask. Although he has a daughter in the military.

[Vladimir]

When we were on Pendleton we got a rundown of the different eras of select-fire and how it evolved and why. Don't really have anything to add though .

[1shot1k]

All good answers and good post. Branches, squads and special details operate as planned out..but all said herein is pretty true.

Most common sysop or scenario as made public at CURRENT typ sqaud ops is at least (1) is mandatory SAW with members carry addtl ammo fo rhim also...and all trained on SAW type weapon(s)...yes 16 reworked standard now (ive heard and seen ) to 3 shot only with full switched(able) for 1 member only( ive been told ..)
14 used to have switchable as did 15...

yes more rounds per kia verified/supposed in vietnam vs WWII is for sure.

Wont try to know how some of you younguns (if appropriate ) were equipped or what you saw...cause i sure believe you..things always change...some dont....
small arms operations obviously should show a growth from previously recorded/supposed data...we are not the military country that would want to go backwards in rounds produced or used...but remember...vietnam- type of fighting and terrain...completely foilage encompassed...when you dont see..they sprayed...hell. ive guilty of kickin my ass backward pushin my boots to keep kickin backward and if so armed..doin my damnest to imitate a "groundspooky" one hand on trigger and other searchin for mags.....
but for the most part...that I guess will have changed me forever it was one round at a time that or the confirmed on call in that stays with you..and I dont mean in a bad way..but ..anyway onbetter thinkin..I also believe when you study numbers of arial ordnance on vietnam vs WWII..more in WWII but the concentration
and effectiveness (when it was done proper ) by our B52's..is little known or remembered by many...some of the devastation I just dont think majority of peoples would be able to take it in just on paper....
my good friend Fred ( gone now) was my 1st boss at company where I sold/oversaw the prison security fence systems Ive talked about..that firm was started by bunch of retired SAC fellows.some directly were involved with the "blackbird " and when it woul dcome to Carswell in the old days..we'd be lookin thru the fence
bigeyed at it..and some of these dudes could open their wallet and be allowed to just walk up and stand in the fuel drippin out of her seams...anyway old FRED..30 yr arforce...tailgunner/specialist for most of those..and durin the 12 years I worked with him h woul dhave bouts with his nerves so bad..least twice a year..be in VA and me and others would come up and visit when allowed and he liked the small model plane kits we found that assembled with no glue and brough him smokes and such.....anyway he saw a seating chartthing you know where they show your seats to buy..it was for TExas Stadium (cowboys) and if I remmeber held about 70 thousand something..and he was seen that one day and had a breakdown and fell ...he later told me when he could how it hit him as he rememberd some combined nummbers from some campaigns/sortie or mission structures and such and he just couldnttake it...as the tailgunner he had just seen so much...

anyway I just ramble but dont mean to..just tryin to be discussing and chattin. Sure helps me and am sure have offended some others..just see my handle and skip over reply if u want or let me know and ill stop. I just lie to chat with good people..sure helps me..

Anyway Cycloneman,in direct answer to the wording of your initial post...

yes ..and maybe in general on occasion and lately...but not always...I dont have the handle
because its vouge or catchy...................

[noslolo]

Please tell us how you really feel 1shot1k... just a joke! Glad to see you posting.

[1shot1k]

Hello noslolo..hope all well....

Im crazty I guess..wake up and laptop near bed...msoke and type..sure like all the fine people here at TFF...

as to "how I feel " old joke used to be one would say.."why with my hands " ..but heck I cant trust tham anymore...

example: friday night got up to go bathroom ya know...light was out.well...what can Isay.........I actually grabbed my "THUMB " of my right hand by mistake...

wife made me mop saturday morninn,,,,,

[carver]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

Over the past weekend I went to TX to do some hunting and well deserved drinking. At the camp fire a discussion arose about a statistic. I heard that the U.S. military shoots 50K rounds to 1 Kill. Do you think this is true?

I don't know for a fact that the numbers quoted are correct or not, but I'm sure it's high. The military was using the M-14, that did have a select fire switch that would allow only 3 or 4 shot bursts with each pull of the trigger. The reasoning was that after the second or third shot was fired the rifle was no longer on target, and any rounds fired after that were just waste. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that the police used to shot an average of 2 or 3 shots per shooting back in the days when they all carried revolvers. The numbers went way up to around 12, or something like that when they all started carring semi-autos. Spray and Pray! Don't count on any of my numbers being right, my memory ain't what it used to be.

[cosmo05]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

Over the past weekend I went to TX to do some hunting and well deserved drinking. At the camp fire a discussion arose about a statistic. I heard that the U.S. military shoots 50K rounds to 1 Kill. Do you think this is true?

Viet Nam was 2200 rds per kill with full auto 16s, now it's 50,000, and with three rounds bursts? Something is wrong with that number. I don't believe it.

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by cosmo05

Viet Nam was 2200 rds per kill with full auto 16s, now it's 50,000, and with three rounds bursts? Something is wrong with that number. I don't believe it.

Thanks for your input. After reading this i did some reasearch and found this. According to the source some 3000 rounds of small arms fire to one kill.
Now if I can only find the accurate number for today's wars.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_t...he_Vietnam_war

[delta13soultaker]

The whole idea of "50,000 to 1 kill" is misleading and irrelevant.

If every shot fired was intended to kill, then it would be worth something, but ever shot is not intended to kill.

Our doctrine for the last 70+ years has been one evolving upon FIRE and MANEUVER. For a fireteam to a joint force division...all maneuver is supported by fire...that's what we do at every echelon.

Here are some reasons to dump a few thousand rounds down range in a few minutes at the company/platoon level:

1. Deny the enemy avenues of maneuver.
2. Fix/suppress the enemy.
3. Feint with probing fire in order to cause the defense to prematurely move his mobile reserve.
4. Probe with fire in order to cause the enemy to prematurely reveal positions of his crew served weapons and indirect fire assets.
5. To distract the enemy from the main effort.

As for full auto...on a rifle it is about as useful as installing windshield wipers inside your car. You don't need it, thus we don't use it....not for a long time.

Mass casualty producing weapons at company level like M249, M240, M2 (and M60 for yall back in the day) do not rip away full auto like in the movies unless covering final protective fires or as support by fire they may focus fires a few moments before an assault hits an objective; things that require intense rapid fire. These weapons fire 6-9 round burst and are coordinated to "talk" between each other to sustain fire for long periods of time. Rambo's machinegun decimated the battlefield...but in reality one machinegun ain't didly-squat...several machineguns synchronized however is what the other guy has nightmares about.

At any rate...50k per kill or 50 million per kill it doesn't matter. You may as well count how many paperclips the military uses.

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

The whole idea of "50,000 to 1 kill" is misleading and irrelevant.

If every shot fired was intended to kill, then it would be worth something, but ever shot is not intended to kill.

Our doctrine for the last 70+ years has been one evolving upon FIRE and MANEUVER. For a fireteam to a joint force division...all maneuver is supported by fire...that's what we do at every echelon.

Here are some reasons to dump a few thousand rounds down range in a few minutes at the company/platoon level:

1. Deny the enemy avenues of maneuver.
2. Fix/suppress the enemy.
3. Feint with probing fire in order to cause the defense to prematurely move his mobile reserve.
4. Probe with fire in order to cause the enemy to prematurely reveal positions of his crew served weapons and indirect fire assets.
5. To distract the enemy from the main effort.

As for full auto...on a rifle it is about as useful as installing windshield wipers inside your car. You don't need it, thus we don't use it....not for a long time.

Mass casualty producing weapons at company level like M249, M240, M2 (and M60 for yall back in the day) do not rip away full auto like in the movies unless covering final protective fires or as support by fire they may focus fires a few moments before an assault hits an objective; things that require intense rapid fire. These weapons fire 6-9 round burst and are coordinated to "talk" between each other to sustain fire for long periods of time. Rambo's machinegun decimated the battlefield...but in reality one machinegun ain't didly-squat...several machineguns synchronized however is what the other guy has nightmares about.

At any rate...50k per kill or 50 million per kill it doesn't matter. You may as well count how many paperclips the military uses.

Thank you Delta.


If anything in past other post I have read people asking how much ammo one shoud have should SHTF. All this gives an interesting perspective.

[delta13soultaker]

No prob.

[1shot1k]

One formula might work per data U can find.......
IF 3000 per kill.................find all rounds USED ..not issued...from Provos or logistics.....find verified KILL count....

get ready...im still thinkin....I know Im thinkin cause I can smell wood burnin......

MUltiply KIll # small arms of course(total) times 3000...

its comin to me......and IF your total does NOT match the SPENT # ........................

well......all I know to do is obatain airfare/ship fare...go to conflict in question, locate nearest kin of known and verified KILL data entry type personnel..and ask them if they believe in their most honest"es of honest opinioins for an important Liberal Media record....." do you believe this person ( insert name here ) would still be just as dead if say 47 rounds had hit him vs ..2 or 3...(adjust numbers for your latest received quantum...)

You know...I sure as Heck hope u know...wasnt just set off by any fine folksies here...just that such "bull Pelosi"
is just that per liberal reporting...UNLESS of COURSE we have reached place to where it is actually taking that many rounds in todays theaters...reserves or not...........

my god.........I see this stuff same as I see "
Headlines On This Date 4 Years Ago:

"Republicans spending $42 million on inauguration while troops Die in unarmored Humvees"
"Bush extravagance exceeds any reason during tough economic times"
"Fat cats get their $42 million inauguration party, Ordinary Americans get the shaft"

Headlines One month ago:

"Historic Obama Inauguration will cost only $170 million"
"Obama Spends $170 million on inauguration; America Needs A Big Party"
"Everyman Obama shows America how to celebrate"
"Citibank executives contribute $8 million to Obama Inauguration"

Yep, .... Perspective is everything.....



sorry...love to all.....reagrsds...1shot

[delta13soultaker]

Brother, the US Army pays $0.07 per 5.56mm M855 cartridge.

Every American pays $0.18 in federal tax for every gallon of gasoline you purchase.

Food for thought.

[Brian48]

A sniper once told me, he expects his squad to pepper the landscape with rounds to keep the enemy still enough for him to take them out one at a time with a single shot each Sort of makes sense I suppose. Just another perspective.

[noslolo]

I hate to get off topic again but, 1shot1k is killing me with laughter!!!! Grabbed my thumb!!! Thanks again, the last couple of weeks have been very hard, and I really needed to laugh.

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

In video games I usually empty a 45rnd mag into 3 targets (MP7-like weapon). Funny thing is that I can make another enemy do a back-flip with a .357mag at 25 yards...then again, that's a video game.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Brother, the US Army pays $0.07 per 5.56mm M855 cartridge.

So, guys, you think if we pooled our money together we could "buy in bulk" and get anything close to that price?

I wish.