Made in China? - The Firearms Forum

carver · 01-01-2010, 10:19 AM

Yesterday my brother took his Remington .270 to the gun smith for some work. The smith told him not to shoot ammo from Wall Mart, and Accadamy Sports, in his guns because this ammo in made in China, and is inferior. First I've heard of this. I have some Remington, Federal, and Winchester ammo bought at Wall Mart, and Accadamy, all this ammo is marded "Made in the U.S.A. Does anyone know if this cheaper ammo is inferior to the more expensive ammo bought at the gun stores? Maybe loaded down, and with seconds on the materials, so that it can be sold for 30% less?

rentalguy1 · 01-01-2010, 10:23 AM

It's the exact same as in the gun shops. It is just bought in higher quantities, which allows Wally World to offer a lower retail price. I'd find another gunsmith.

ponycar17 · 01-01-2010, 11:00 AM

Even if made overseas, the ammo is held to manufacturing tolerances set by the ammo manufacturer, and closely regulated by them.... If they let their tolerances drift to an unsafe or inaccurate level then it affects their brand image as a company. This gun smith sounds ignorant.

I don't like buying anything from WalMart because their business practices often injure the ability of manufacturers to sell and compete, particularly with the Volume Producer program they offer as a carrot to manufacturers. With that said, I did buy 2 boxes of Remington .270 Win. 150 Gr. CoreLokt ammo at WalMart last night because the wife had 2 gift cards from her work that she wanted to get rid of...

EDIT: Let me add a caveat to what I said. WalMart does deal in lesser quality items on a regular basis from major name manufacturers. Some companies do indeed produce a line of products marked with their brand name but with a model designation specifically unique to WalMart or other low-grade discount stores. Those items are marked with a different brand label on purpose. Automotive part manufacturers do this. Toiletries and household goods manufacturers do this as well with lighter weight toilet paper as one example. Clothing and linen manufacturers do this with less thread count in their products. Levis white label comes to mind. Heck, gun manufacturers do this by providing less ornate stocks to WalMart at a reduced cost. My Marlin Camp 9 is proof of this practice. It was purchased at WalMart for a lesser price but has no stock checkering. Would an ammo manufacturer provide a round with lesser safety or lesser inherent accuracy to WalMart and then market the exact same model with higher quality to another retail outlet? No, I don't think so... It would be designated as a WalMart-only round if the accuracy suffered. The safety would not suffer. Major manufacturers are very scared of litigation, and safety is not something worth risking their brand image on... That's simply common sense from a business standpoint.

bcj1755 · 01-01-2010, 11:06 AM

Last time I bought ammo at Mao-Mart, it was Federal brand and made in the US. Even the Blazer that they used to sell was US-made.

I agree with ponycar, I try to avoid Mao-Mart if I can, but I pop in fairly regularly to check for ammo and sometimes to check for GI Joe (they have some store exclusive GI Joe battlesets that would fit nicely in my Cobra army

).

Bobitis · 01-01-2010, 12:36 PM

I'd go there if they were giving it away with no qty restrictions.

We got some chinese staples at work that have a 25% failure rate using two sheets of paper.

Why would I want to staple one sheet?

Most of my .22 ammo comes from Meheeco. Several different brands.

Terry_P · 01-01-2010, 01:59 PM

I shop regularly at Wal Mart and other big box stores. It depends on what I am buying as to where I shop. Wal Mart is RV'er friendly and it is a smart business practice as it builds loyality.

As to the ammo I think your gunsmith dislikes the competition.

Carne Frio · 01-01-2010, 03:21 PM

Has any ammunition been imported from China in the last 10 years?

carver · 01-02-2010, 10:11 AM

Thanks for the replies folks! I tend to agree with you Terry P. I do know that the Yugoslav ammo does not shoot well in my .308, while the Remington does a much better job. There is a difference. ponycar17 I value your input, and again, thank you all. Wishing you all a very happy, and prosperous New Year!

topper · 01-02-2010, 10:46 AM

I'm trying my best to wean off wal-mart. But most of the ammo and firearms at Academy and Gander mountain higher in cost. Really makes a person think before buying. I did find a local pawn shop that has a very good selection of firearms and ammo and most seem fairly reasonable. I'll be going there first.

artabr · 01-02-2010, 10:49 AM

The ammo sold at Wal-Mart comes off the same production lines as the ammo that is sold at that gunsmiths(?) shop. Ain't no difference.
Last I checked, the only ammo companies in China were owned by The People's Liberation Army.

I agree with Pony. I believe that some companies ship their seconds to Wally-world.
Ammo companies aren't among them.

Tell your brother to start handloading, then he won't have to worry about it. I don't.

Art

Suwannee Tim · 01-02-2010, 04:42 PM

There is one and only one reason the Chicoms aren't selling ammo here and that's because they are selling it elsewhere. They are ten years into a massive military modernization and expansion and the end is not in sight. They are making inroads into South America and Africa with both industrial and military sales. That's where their ammo is going. China has had some notorious cases of inferior and adulterated food products and they have responded by hanging some of the offenders and imprisoning many others. Bad for business you see. A rather effective strategy I should think.

I've heard the white box stuff bashed before, it's always either ignorant or self-serving.

AmmoGuy · 01-02-2010, 08:39 PM

The importation of ammunition (and centerfire firearms and propellants, BTW) from China was banned by Bill Clinton using Executive Order authority in 1994. That prohibition is still in force.

I work for one of the major ammunition manufacturers mentioned in the original posting and I can tell you that when we make our products we have no idea who the ultimate reseller will be. The product simply moves to a warehouse and ships to whichever of our customers has ordered it. Therefore, there exists only one set of quality standards and sourcing for all the products, regardless of where they are purchased.

I have heard of such claims made by smaller, possibly mis-informed, dealers before and there is no truth to them, at least for our products.

Under Federal law, the country of orgin MUST be marked on the retail package unless the country is the USA. If it is made in the US, the marking is optional.

312shooter · 01-03-2010, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmmoGuy

The importation of ammunition (and centerfire firearms and propellants, BTW) from China was banned by Bill Clinton using Executive Order authority in 1994. That prohibition is still in force.

I work for one of the major ammunition manufacturers mentioned in the original posting and I can tell you that when we make our products we have no idea who the ultimate reseller will be. The product simply moves to a warehouse and ships to whichever of our customers has ordered it. Therefore, there exists only one set of quality standards and sourcing for all the products, regardless of where they are purchased.

I have heard of such claims made by smaller, possibly mis-informed, dealers before and there is no truth to them, at least for our products.

Under Federal law, the country of orgin MUST be marked on the retail package unless the country is the USA. If it is made in the US, the marking is optional.

That sounds familiar,but can anyone explain why PMC closed the plant down here in NV and outsourced to Korea? Did you guys notice the packaging change a few years back from the red and white boxes to the black and Bronze? What a shame!!!

AmmoGuy · 01-03-2010, 08:51 PM

Define "outsourcing to Korea". Don't lose sight of the fact that PMC is a KOREAN company from the beginning. The Nevada operation was an extension of that company. In Souht Korea, PMC is a major manfuacturer of military ammunition, including munitions that go beyond the realm of small arms (.50 cal and smaller). If I am not mistaken, they have been supplying some of the needs of US troops to augment the output of the only US military arsenal - Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP).

So, when they were unable to achieve sufficient market penetration with the NV operation, they simply fell back to supplying the market they had established from the Korean plants (they have more than one).

312shooter · 01-03-2010, 11:35 PM

Good info for sure, the article I read stated that PMC manufactured the ammo here with korean components, but joined Poonsang corporation the component supplier and opened plants in Angang and Dongrae Korea.

Outsourcing - US plants shutting down, Americans out of a jobs, and turning over manufacturing to plants in foreign countries such as Korea.

AmmoGuy · 01-04-2010, 06:38 PM

LOL - OK, you and I define outsourcing the same, but a case might have been made at the time PMC USA (as "El Dorado Cartridge") came into being as outsourcing FROM KOREA.

The Nevada operation was set up by a family member of the group that held PMC in Korea and they had some small manufacturing capabilities but also imported and distributed ammunition from PMC Korea, which existed before El Dorado came into being.

There is still an on-going business importing the Korean PMC products, but I am not sure of the relationship/ownership of that enterprise relative to the PMC ROK operations.

You might ask "how do know this?" I work with the guy who used to be the sales manager for El Dorado. The above is a reasonable recitation of the history/ownership he gave me this morning when I asked for a refresher.

medalguy · 01-04-2010, 11:00 PM

So, let's see, a gun store counter commando says don't buy Remington ammo from Wallyworld because it's inferior, but buy Remingtom ammo from his gun store because it's better quality. Hmmmm......

312shooter · 01-04-2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmmoGuy

LOL - OK, you and I define outsourcing the same, but a case might have been made at the time PMC USA (as "El Dorado Cartridge") came into being as outsourcing FROM KOREA.

The Nevada operation was set up by a family member of the group that held PMC in Korea and they had some small manufacturing capabilities but also imported and distributed ammunition from PMC Korea, which existed before El Dorado came into being.

There is still an on-going business importing the Korean PMC products, but I am not sure of the relationship/ownership of that enterprise relative to the PMC ROK operations.

You might ask "how do know this?" I work with the guy who used to be the sales manager for El Dorado. The above is a reasonable recitation of the history/ownership he gave me this morning when I asked for a refresher.

Ammoguy,

Thanks for this info, I wonder how many people out there have never realized they were shooting Korean ammo all along, wow a definite eye opener for me, great lesson on PMC ammo for all!

01-01-2010, 10:19 AM	#1
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,301	Made in China? Yesterday my brother took his Remington .270 to the gun smith for some work. The smith told him not to shoot ammo from Wall Mart, and Accadamy Sports, in his guns because this ammo in made in China, and is inferior. First I've heard of this. I have some Remington, Federal, and Winchester ammo bought at Wall Mart, and Accadamy, all this ammo is marded "Made in the U.S.A. Does anyone know if this cheaper ammo is inferior to the more expensive ammo bought at the gun stores? Maybe loaded down, and with seconds on the materials, so that it can be sold for 30% less? __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. --> Last edited by carver; 01-01-2010 at 10:20 AM..

01-01-2010, 10:23 AM	#2
rentalguy1 Former Guest Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: The mountains of NE TN. Posts: 884	Re: Made in China? It's the exact same as in the gun shops. It is just bought in higher quantities, which allows Wally World to offer a lower retail price. I'd find another gunsmith.

01-01-2010, 11:00 AM	#3
ponycar17 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: South Carolina Contributor Posts: 4,884	Re: Made in China? Even if made overseas, the ammo is held to manufacturing tolerances set by the ammo manufacturer, and closely regulated by them.... If they let their tolerances drift to an unsafe or inaccurate level then it affects their brand image as a company. This gun smith sounds ignorant. I don't like buying anything from WalMart because their business practices often injure the ability of manufacturers to sell and compete, particularly with the Volume Producer program they offer as a carrot to manufacturers. With that said, I did buy 2 boxes of Remington .270 Win. 150 Gr. CoreLokt ammo at WalMart last night because the wife had 2 gift cards from her work that she wanted to get rid of... EDIT: Let me add a caveat to what I said. WalMart does deal in lesser quality items on a regular basis from major name manufacturers. Some companies do indeed produce a line of products marked with their brand name but with a model designation specifically unique to WalMart or other low-grade discount stores. Those items are marked with a different brand label on purpose. Automotive part manufacturers do this. Toiletries and household goods manufacturers do this as well with lighter weight toilet paper as one example. Clothing and linen manufacturers do this with less thread count in their products. Levis white label comes to mind. Heck, gun manufacturers do this by providing less ornate stocks to WalMart at a reduced cost. My Marlin Camp 9 is proof of this practice. It was purchased at WalMart for a lesser price but has no stock checkering. Would an ammo manufacturer provide a round with lesser safety or lesser inherent accuracy to WalMart and then market the exact same model with higher quality to another retail outlet? No, I don't think so... It would be designated as a WalMart-only round if the accuracy suffered. The safety would not suffer. Major manufacturers are very scared of litigation, and safety is not something worth risking their brand image on... That's simply common sense from a business standpoint. __________________ Arm yourself with intellectual Ammunition! Gunfacts 5.1 Myth-Busting Facts JustFacts.com on Gun Control Stopping Power, the Downloadable Book Last edited by ponycar17; 01-02-2010 at 12:06 PM..

01-01-2010, 11:06 AM	#4
bcj1755 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: A wretched hive of scum and villiany Posts: 4,357	Re: Made in China? Last time I bought ammo at Mao-Mart, it was Federal brand and made in the US. Even the Blazer that they used to sell was US-made. I agree with ponycar, I try to avoid Mao-Mart if I can, but I pop in fairly regularly to check for ammo and sometimes to check for GI Joe (they have some store exclusive GI Joe battlesets that would fit nicely in my Cobra army). __________________ History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace, and revolution continue on forever. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges - Cicero If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

01-01-2010, 12:36 PM	#5
Bobitis Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6,612	Re: Made in China? I'd go there if they were giving it away with no qty restrictions. We got some chinese staples at work that have a 25% failure rate using two sheets of paper. Why would I want to staple one sheet? Most of my .22 ammo comes from Meheeco. Several different brands. __________________ ^.^ A point in every direction is the same as having no point at all

01-01-2010, 01:59 PM	#6
Terry_P Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NH Posts: 2,513	Re: Made in China? I shop regularly at Wal Mart and other big box stores. It depends on what I am buying as to where I shop. Wal Mart is RV'er friendly and it is a smart business practice as it builds loyality. As to the ammo I think your gunsmith dislikes the competition. __________________ NRA and NAHC Life "Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -Aristotle

01-01-2010, 03:21 PM	#7
Carne Frio Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Near Fairbanks Posts: 699	Re: Made in China? Has any ammunition been imported from China in the last 10 years?

01-02-2010, 10:11 AM	#8
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,301	Re: Made in China? Thanks for the replies folks! I tend to agree with you Terry P. I do know that the Yugoslav ammo does not shoot well in my .308, while the Remington does a much better job. There is a difference. ponycar17 I value your input, and again, thank you all. Wishing you all a very happy, and prosperous New Year! __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

01-02-2010, 10:46 AM	#9
topper Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: deep in the woods Posts: 748	Re: Made in China? I'm trying my best to wean off wal-mart. But most of the ammo and firearms at Academy and Gander mountain higher in cost. Really makes a person think before buying. I did find a local pawn shop that has a very good selection of firearms and ammo and most seem fairly reasonable. I'll be going there first.

01-02-2010, 10:49 AM	#10
artabr Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Iberia, Louisiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Re: Made in China? The ammo sold at Wal-Mart comes off the same production lines as the ammo that is sold at that gunsmiths(?) shop. Ain't no difference. Last I checked, the only ammo companies in China were owned by The People's Liberation Army. I agree with Pony. I believe that some companies ship their seconds to Wally-world. Ammo companies aren't among them. Tell your brother to start handloading, then he won't have to worry about it. I don't. Art __________________ God and the soldier we like adore, In times of trouble, not before. When troubles ended and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier is slighted. Francis Quarles 1592 - 1644 __________________ When asked for my race, I answer CauCajun. Hope is not a plan, and not all change is good. The resistance is here; the resistance is now. RESIST! These hands are neither cold nor are they dead!! Last edited by artabr; 01-02-2010 at 10:53 AM..

01-02-2010, 04:42 PM	#11
Suwannee Tim Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,227	Re: Made in China? There is one and only one reason the Chicoms aren't selling ammo here and that's because they are selling it elsewhere. They are ten years into a massive military modernization and expansion and the end is not in sight. They are making inroads into South America and Africa with both industrial and military sales. That's where their ammo is going. China has had some notorious cases of inferior and adulterated food products and they have responded by hanging some of the offenders and imprisoning many others. Bad for business you see. A rather effective strategy I should think. I've heard the white box stuff bashed before, it's always either ignorant or self-serving. Last edited by Suwannee Tim; 01-02-2010 at 04:44 PM..

01-02-2010, 08:39 PM	#12
AmmoGuy Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 4	Re: Made in China? The importation of ammunition (and centerfire firearms and propellants, BTW) from China was banned by Bill Clinton using Executive Order authority in 1994. That prohibition is still in force. I work for one of the major ammunition manufacturers mentioned in the original posting and I can tell you that when we make our products we have no idea who the ultimate reseller will be. The product simply moves to a warehouse and ships to whichever of our customers has ordered it. Therefore, there exists only one set of quality standards and sourcing for all the products, regardless of where they are purchased. I have heard of such claims made by smaller, possibly mis-informed, dealers before and there is no truth to them, at least for our products. Under Federal law, the country of orgin MUST be marked on the retail package unless the country is the USA. If it is made in the US, the marking is optional.

01-03-2010, 08:51 PM	#14
AmmoGuy Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 4	Re: Made in China? Define "outsourcing to Korea". Don't lose sight of the fact that PMC is a KOREAN company from the beginning. The Nevada operation was an extension of that company. In Souht Korea, PMC is a major manfuacturer of military ammunition, including munitions that go beyond the realm of small arms (.50 cal and smaller). If I am not mistaken, they have been supplying some of the needs of US troops to augment the output of the only US military arsenal - Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP). So, when they were unable to achieve sufficient market penetration with the NV operation, they simply fell back to supplying the market they had established from the Korean plants (they have more than one).

01-03-2010, 11:35 PM	#15
312shooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Las Vegas NV Posts: 1,148	Re: Made in China? Good info for sure, the article I read stated that PMC manufactured the ammo here with korean components, but joined Poonsang corporation the component supplier and opened plants in Angang and Dongrae Korea. Outsourcing - US plants shutting down, Americans out of a jobs, and turning over manufacturing to plants in foreign countries such as Korea. __________________ "Democracy is based on citizenship- perhaps the greatest gift the United States has given to the world- Power is vested in the people themselves, and government flows from the people" James M Henslin

01-04-2010, 06:38 PM	#16
AmmoGuy Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 4	Re: Made in China? LOL - OK, you and I define outsourcing the same, but a case might have been made at the time PMC USA (as "El Dorado Cartridge") came into being as outsourcing FROM KOREA. The Nevada operation was set up by a family member of the group that held PMC in Korea and they had some small manufacturing capabilities but also imported and distributed ammunition from PMC Korea, which existed before El Dorado came into being. There is still an on-going business importing the Korean PMC products, but I am not sure of the relationship/ownership of that enterprise relative to the PMC ROK operations. You might ask "how do know this?" I work with the guy who used to be the sales manager for El Dorado. The above is a reasonable recitation of the history/ownership he gave me this morning when I asked for a refresher.

01-04-2010, 11:00 PM	#17
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 585	Re: Made in China? So, let's see, a gun store counter commando says don't buy Remington ammo from Wallyworld because it's inferior, but buy Remingtom ammo from his gun store because it's better quality. Hmmmm......