How Can a Gun Discharge During Cleaning?

[PPK 32]

While cleaning the guns on Saturday the thought occured how you hear of people discharging a gun while cleaning. I thought to myself, how in the heck do ya do something like that? The range guns are always empty, with mags removed, they are always checked for one in the pipe before cleaning. The house gun never has one in the pipe and when it is inspected or cleaned the mag is dropped and chamber is checked. Only thing I can think of is at the beginning of the process the gun has to have one in the pipe to start. Any other thoughts?

[pawn]

(1) Ignorance
(2) Carelessness

Either shortcoming can end in tradgedy.

[45nut]

Expanded version of what pawn said:

The shooter failed to clear the weapon before beginning the cleaning process. Simple errors can have huge consequences.

[Shellback]

I won't comment on this one (YET)
Tim

[TranterUK]

No one who has a gun should ever be in that position. It breaks every rule.

I knew a guy, no friend of mine, who's gun went off while he was cleaning it and it killed his wife. And he got away with it.

[gandog56]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

No one who has a gun should ever be in that position. It breaks every rule.

I knew a guy, no friend of mine, who's gun went off while he was cleaning it and it killed his wife. And he got away with it.

If it killed his wife, is that "getting away with it"?

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by gandog56

If it killed his wife, is that "getting away with it"?

It is if that was his intention all along.

It's like the Audie Murphy shooting, but in reverse, when he was accused of 'trying' to kill a guy when he fired his handgun at him in an argument after the war. He pointed out to the judge that had he wanted to kill the guy, he would not have missed. An argument he won.

[thakidc]

Dont most guns require the hammer to stay in the cocked position while you disassemble the weapon? or is that just mine? Plus some of them you even leave the safety on! Usually the bolt/bolt carrier are one of the first things to come out, if not, usually you separate the trigger group from the bolt/bolt carrier to the extent the gun will not fire.

I cant see why someone would point their gun at themselves and/or others while pulling the trigger (to decock the hammer, if needed, or for any other reason!). I always point my guns muzzle in a safe direction(I dry fire 10ft. from a very big log) while depressing the hammer for any reason!

Sorry for the rant, had a bad day.

Also, it all comes to Darwins theory

[delta13soultaker]

From the XD Manual: "Pull the trigger with the pistol pointed in a safe direction to fully unlock the slide from the frame."

Glock and some others are the same way.

Weapons that are SAO or have a safety decocker have a bit of an advantage here since the slide normally just rides off.

I would say most AD/ND occur not during cleaning, but while disassembling the weapon. Carelessness and lack of training/teaching.

I've seen a man pick up a rifle in such a way, his finger on the trigger, that the weight of the weapon pulled the trigger and fired into the dirt.

Not even 3 weeks ago I was ten feet from a Soldier that finished a night room clearing drill with his squad and never put his M16 back on safe and during the hotwash he squeezed off a shot among about 45 Soldiers.

In Kuwait, Christmas 2002, at a party with some wealthy locals, I watched a tanker showing off his M9 to some kids fire a 9mm in the middle of exchanging gifts.

It all comes down to Cooper's 3rd rule: Never put your finger near the trigger until a target is in the sights.

[Vladimir]

I can easily see how it would happen. That doesn't mean it should. I see two factors here, awarness, and safety. I'm sure you could put it in a million other terms.

My awarness is high, my safety as a result is a little lower. (I'll explain).
If for example, I wanted to adjust my awarness, my safety would have to adjust accordingly.

Examples? My dad got cranky when I racked the slide with the barrel against my leg. Okay, I know never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy. But my gun is a tool, I care for it, I know it, I know its condition, etc. I know it isn't going to go off against my leg when I'm racking the slide (because I know the exact condition it is in, I know it and trust it)... would I do that with someone elses gun? No.

Before something like cleaning I always check the chamber, but I also always know what state my gun is in. Being a student I don't carry often unfortunately. My USP has been in the case, sitting on my bookshelf for a week. I can absolutely garuntee you there is a 13 mag of JHP in the well, a 10 mag of FMJ, and one extra JHP resting in the trigger guard (the one missing from the chamber as weapons being brought in/removed from the range have to be unloaded).

Sure I'd check the chamber before cleaning it, but there is no question in my mind that is the status of the weapon.

So the point is my awarness is high, so I don't fret over safety. Thats not to say I am not careful, nor does it mean I don't take advantage of common sense. But say I owned several weapons, switched between what I carried, or was just forgetful/a spaz in general... (AKA my awarness was dropping)... you can bet the safety would go up.


I guess thats kind of complicated and a lot of people hate that I don't spew the rehearsed lines of safety, but thats just the way it is (for me). I grew up around guns a lot (dad is/was always a cop), I can fully recognize that I am comfortable around guns to a fault. But I feel safe and confident in my current practices.

Summary: I can easily see how someone could discharge in cleaning, but at the same time obviously the individual screwed up somewhere if that happened.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Vladimir

But my gun is a tool, I care for it, I know it, I know its condition, etc. I know it isn't going to go off against my leg when I'm racking the slide (because I know the exact condition it is in, I know it and trust it)... would I do that with someone elses gun? No.

Sure I'd check the chamber before cleaning it, but there is no question in my mind that is the status of the weapon.

I can fully recognize that I am comfortable around guns to a fault. But I feel safe and confident in my current practices.

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." Donald Rumsfeld

The day I saw an M16 that fired every time the selector was rotated to SAFE, I was humbled enough to accept that a firearm, any firearm, is just a machine; no matter how much I learn it, master it, know it, one day it will turn on me and maybe destroy me. I will respect them, but never trust them. You can only be betrayed by that that you trusted.

Calling a firearm a tool is correct, in the logic that a car is a tool that trasnports you with the least amount of effort.

A firearm is a tool that kills you with the least amount of effort. It is the last thing you should trust.

A firearm is a weapon and requires absolute 100% positive control at all times. If you give it the opportunity to hurt someone or yourself, eventually it will do that.

[Vladimir]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

A firearm is a weapon and requires absolute 100% positive control at all times. If you give it the opportunity to hurt someone or yourself, eventually it will do that.

One big caveat though. Was that your M16 you had cared for day in and day out for months, developing the trust? I think we would all agree all guns are not equal, maintenance (or lack thereof) can make a huge difference. Like I said I trust my USP, I wouldn't pick someone elses gun up and treat it with the same trust.

That being said there is also a difference I think, I mean my USP has a safety, that doesn't mean I put it to my head to test if it works .

I think it's one of those things, like I said everyone hates that I don't spout the rehearsed lines of safety... but you would all feel comfortable around me and with my level of safety. I guess its hard to explain.

I also think there is a difference between safety and negligence. Things like racking the slide with the barrell against your leg isn't going to eventually lead to injury. Being negligent will.

Driving without your seatbelt won't inherently lead to injury, particularly if you are a safe driver. But driving eratically will. I think that's a fitting analogy.

But I agree with your overall point, and will keep it in mind if I ever handle an M16 .

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Vladimir

One big caveat though. Was that your M16 you had cared for day in and day out for months, developing the trust?

Our viewpoint is different because of age and experiences.

Your's is the voice of youth. Being a young man means reinventing some wheels and it is a good thing.

Mine is the voice of a few more years. Don't resent the voice of age, because one day it will be your voice too.

That old safety stuff isn't rehearsed lines. It is tried and true wisdom. Safety does not limit you, it actually opens doors and lets you do much more.

Believing a firearm is truly yours is like believing you truly own a woman; in the end either will do what it is going to do, no matter what you have done.

[artabr]

When I was about 12 years old, a couple of us were at a friends house. We had just gotten back from hunting. We were in his bedroom cleaning our shotguns when his 9 year old sister came in the room to bug us as younger siblings are going to do when you're kids.
This went on 3 or 4 times. The last time she did it he jokingly told her that the next time she came into the room he would shoot her.
As I said we were cleaning the guns and had no ammo in the room.
She comes back into the room and is about 3' to my left and about 6' in front of my friend. He picked up his shotgun and pointed it at her and pulled the trigger. It blew a 6" hole in her chest were her heart was.

A shell had gotten hung up in the mag. tube. He and we thought the gun was unloaded.
The shot didn't even sound real. Talk about a surreal experience.

If you ever want to see a Range Nazi about gun safety, get around me when somebody sweeps me with a muzzle.
I will come unglued.
I'm a pretty jovial guy, but this is the one thing that will light my fuze.


Art

[SaltwaterCowboy]

Stupidest thing you could ever do is think a gun is completely safe... Even when it's not loaded, if there's one rule I never break, my firearms never get pointed at anything I don't want a hole blown into. A lot of the common sense rules about firearm safety were written in blood...