9mm Ammo Questions

[wingspar]

Be gentle here. This may sound like a stupid question to some, but not to me. Back in the mid 1980's I bought a Marlin Camp 9, a 9mm carbine for those not familiar with the gun. Time, work, and life style changes put the gun in the closet till last year when I took it out and shot it for the first time in a long time. Recently, I’ve acquired an interest in a 9mm pistol. Top 3 on the list is a Glock 17 & 19, and the Ruger SR9 listed in no particular order. When I went to a store to look at some, I got a shock. No ammo. Can’t even find 22 ammo here. Anyway, while doing research on 9mm, I saw 9x17, 9x18, 9x19 and others. Can not find that link. Seems like 9x19 is the most common, and also known as 9mm Luger, and is what I want, but what are the others?

Here is a photo of the only 9mm ammo I’ve ever bought/used. It says Olin Winchester Group on the back of the box. I took this photo this morning.



Here is a photo of what I just ordered online.



It has this description:

This is Winchester Ranger 9mm NATO Mil-Spec. 124gr. FMJ Ammo. This ammo was manufactured for a military contract. We got some of the left over inventory when the contract was over. This ammo is manufactured to U.S. and NATO Military Spec's. It is headstamped WCC with the NATO Cross. This is the best 9mm Available at this time. It comes in 50rd. boxes, 500rds. per case.

Altho I will certainly find out for myself, out of curiosity, will I notice a difference between the 115 grain bullets and the 124 grain bullets? Difference in kickback?

[olehippy]

For your handgun (presuming you went with one of the three you listed) you want the 9x19, that is 9mm Luger, aka Parabellum etc. As far as your Marlin, I don’t know there, I’ll let some who knows what they’re talking about advise you there.

The Winchester Ranger is good ammo. I don’t shoot FMJ, but am very pleased with their JHP. One concern, I think all the Ranger ammo is +P, I know their JHP is, be sure your Marlin can shoot this ammo. FYI: +P is higher pressure ammo, it can be dangerous to shoot in weapons not designed to accept it.

The difference between 115 and 124 gr (grain) is the weight of the trajectory you send downrange. 115. 124. 125, 127 and up to 147 gr, the more common bullets available for this caliber. On the practical side, the difference is basically (very basically!) speed versus punch. Sort of like the target getting hit by a high speed brick (115gr) vs a slightly slower traveling bolder – again, very basic, I presumed you were asking on this level. For the every day shooter they act a little differently as they travel downrange, but unless you going for precision shooting not any big deal. Very, very difference in recoil, doubt you’ll notice any difference.

Hope this helps and I apologize in advance if I in any way ‘spoke down to you’.

BTW ‘Will Fly for Food’, are you a pilot? Asking because I am too.

Miles

[Alpo]

9x17 is the 380. In Europe it is known, also, as the 9x17, 9mm Browning Short, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Corto, and a few other names.

You're aware, aren't you, that the Eurpean designation is diameter of bullet in milimeters x length of cartridge case in milimeters. So 9x17 is a 9mm bullet in a 17mm long case.

9x18 is for the 9mm Makarov. Soviet gun, slightly bigger than a Walther PP. Slightly longer case allows more powder, and more power.

9x19. This is the 9mm Luger. 9mm Parabellum. What is generally meant, in this country, when someone just says, "9mm". It is the one you want for your Marlin and the pistols.

There are other 9mms. About a dozen, all told. But these three are the ones most commonly seen here.

None of them are interchangeable.

[wingspar]

Originally Posted by olehippy

Hope this helps and I apologize in advance if I in any way ‘spoke down to you’.

BTW ‘Will Fly for Food’, are you a pilot? Asking because I am too.

Yes, the Marlin is 9mm Parabellum and 9x19. Says so right on the manual which I just got out. The Marlin is a modern gun, so I’m sure it will take the +P ammo, which I’ve never heard of till now, but I’ll have to research that, as I’ll be putting some rounds thru the Marlin before I make the decision on which handgun to go with. Not much info on the Marlin page. No email contact even, and of course, the Camp 9 is not mentioned anywhere.

Yep. Pilot. Just private VFR. Got some hard instrument time, as I have a friend who is a CFII, and we flew together a lot, but time, money, and lack of need or desire for an instrument rating determined that I would stay VFR. Owned a Beech Musketeer since 1995 and have a little over 1,200 hours in my log book. Not flying much these days. How about you?

Originally Posted by Alpo

9x17 is the 380. In Europe it is known, also, as the 9x17, 9mm Browning Short, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Corto, and a few other names.

You're aware, aren't you, that the Eurpean designation is diameter of bullet in milimeters x length of cartridge case in milimeters. So 9x17 is a 9mm bullet in a 17mm long case.

9x18 is for the 9mm Makarov. Soviet gun, slightly bigger than a Walther PP. Slightly longer case allows more powder, and more power.

9x19. This is the 9mm Luger. 9mm Parabellum. What is generally meant, in this country, when someone just says, "9mm". It is the one you want for your Marlin and the pistols.

There are other 9mms. About a dozen, all told. But these three are the ones most commonly seen here.

None of them are interchangeable.

Thank you very much for that info. That helps a bunch.

I know the 9mm designates the diameter of the bullet, but I had no idea what the numbers behind the x meant till now. I don’t think I’ve ever seen bullets designated like that till my very recent research on a new handgun. I found it confusing. Part of the reason for looking at the 3 handguns I mentioned in my original post was so that I could shoot the same ammo in the rifle and handgun. I thought I was on the right track, now I know I’m on the right track.

[Oneida Steve]

You should be glad you kept that Marlin Camp 9mm. The price of these discontinued guns has gotten crazy lately. $450 - $500 is not an uncommon asking price for the 9mm version. The .45 ACP model is even more.

[wingspar]

When I buy a gun I like, I keep it. I have no idea what I paid for the Camp 9 new, and I have no idea where the receipt is, but I’m sure it was under $300, but that was mid 1980 dollars, and I’m not even sure gas had gone over $1/gallon yet. It is small, light, came with 12 round clips, and you could get 20 round clips with it as an accessory. With a little practice, one could probably fire all 32 rounds from both clips in under 20 seconds. Interesting that they would be worth that much now. Marlin definitely does not make this gun anymore. Not even any info on their web page that I could find.

[olehippy]

I might be overly cautious Wingspar, but your Marlin being a modern firearm doesnt make it safe to fire +P ammo, I’m surprised someone here hasn’t commented on the subject. I did a quick search and found a couple references that the camp 9 is only rated for standard ammo – I.E see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=90863 and go down to Chad Young’s reply. My quick google search did provide more references, I didnt spend a lot of time perusing them. You might want to do a more investigative online search before risking damage to the weapon. Again, as I said in my original post, I don’t know.

I too am private, been flying for about 20 yrs. I have my IFR and currently own a Mooney M20R that I absolute love. Like you don’t fly as much as much as I used to, but enjoy taking my sons up (very adventurous 13 yr old twins, I know I’m probably risking national security but oh well. . .) Also loading the family for a quick away is most times actually cheaper and a hell of a lot more convenient than going commercial or overland. Despite the economy I still go up from time to time for one of those ‘hundred dollar hamburger’s too!

Miles

[woolleyworm]

My general line of thinking would have to side with the ole'hippy also. Remember, you're firing pistol ammo out of a rifle barrel; add +P and you're going to increase pressure significantly over standard. Not saying that it can't handle +P loads, just reinforcing that I'd personnaly make sure I call Ruger and find out straight from the horses mouth. Assume nothing and lose nothing. Best of luck to you, have fun!

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

My general line of thinking would have to side with the ole'hippy also. Remember, you're firing pistol ammo out of a rifle barrel; add +P and you're going to increase pressure significantly over standard. Not saying that it can't handle +P loads, just reinforcing that I'd personnaly make sure I call Ruger and find out straight from the horses mouth. Assume nothing and lose nothing. Best of luck to you, have fun!

And if that don't work, you could try calling Marlin.

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by Alpo

And if that don't work, you could try calling Marlin.

LMAO Not sure what i was spaced out on there.....I think it may have had something to do with the hot egg and cheese sandwich i cooked up and was eating at the time. Scrambled eggs with diced hot peppers, onions and Jack cheese, made into a nice little square to fit between 2 pieces of buttered toast.

Thanks for correcting that Alpo !

[wingspar]

Originally Posted by olehippy

I might be overly cautious Wingspar, but your Marlin being a modern firearm doesnt make it safe to fire +P ammo, I’m surprised someone here hasn’t commented on the subject. I did a quick search and found a couple references that the camp 9 is only rated for standard ammo – I.E see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=90863 and go down to Chad Young’s reply. My quick google search did provide more references, I didnt spend a lot of time perusing them. You might want to do a more investigative online search before risking damage to the weapon. Again, as I said in my original post, I don’t know.

Thanks for that. No where in the description on the page I ordered from did it mention anything about +P, not that I would have known what it meant. I wouldn’t have. Thanks for the link to that thread. I wanted to ask a question on that thread, but noticed it was a few years old, so maybe I’ll start a new thread here on the Camp 9 and +P ammo, or try calling Marlin. That’s kind of a bummer, as I would have shot those thru the Camp 9. Guess I’ll hold onto them till I pick up the new handgun. From this point on, I want to make sure the ammo I buy is ammo I can use in both the Camp 9 and the new handgun. I’m not real interested in hot loads or stopping power. I’m a tin can type of guy.

I too am private, been flying for about 20 yrs. I have my IFR and currently own a Mooney M20R that I absolute love. Like you don’t fly as much as much as I used to, but enjoy taking my sons up (very adventurous 13 yr old twins, I know I’m probably risking national security but oh well. . .) Also loading the family for a quick away is most times actually cheaper and a hell of a lot more convenient than going commercial or overland. Despite the economy I still go up from time to time for one of those ‘hundred dollar hamburger’s too!

Owning a retract has never been financially feasible for me. Have a friend with a Comanche who went thru a $4k fix on his landing gear, and he did the work himself with an IA looking in on him. It also automatically adds $2k to $4k on annuals. I was really drooling when he was forced to sell it for medical reasons, but the purchase price was way over my head, and I’d have chocked at annual time. Nice aircraft. My last annual was $350. I am not even doing the $100 burger flights anymore. Been since August 2007 since I did one of those, and it’s also been since August 2007 since I’ve landed anywhere except home base. Haven’t been up since February. I’ve always said I will keep the plane till I’m too old to fly anymore, but the thrill isn’t there anymore, and it does cost a considerable amount of money to just leave it sit. I’ve gone from 150 hour years down to two hour years. Sad. Where are you based out of?

[wingspar]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

My general line of thinking would have to side with the ole'hippy also. Remember, you're firing pistol ammo out of a rifle barrel; add +P and you're going to increase pressure significantly over standard. Not saying that it can't handle +P loads, just reinforcing that I'd personnaly make sure I call Ruger and find out straight from the horses mouth. Assume nothing and lose nothing. Best of luck to you, have fun!

Well, till this thread, I never heard of +P ammo. I always thought 9mm was 9mm. Already, joining this forum is paying off with excellent info. Thanks for the confirmation on olehippy’s post.

Originally Posted by Alpo

And if that don't work, you could try calling Marlin.

Hehe. I see you already took care of woolleyworm’s typo.

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

LMAO Not sure what i was spaced out on there.....I think it may have had something to do with the hot egg and cheese sandwich i cooked up and was eating at the time. Scrambled eggs with diced hot peppers, onions and Jack cheese, made into a nice little square to fit between 2 pieces of buttered toast.

Now, I’m hungry again, and I just ate!

[olehippy]

It just took me an instant to see what clouded your mind Wooleyworm. A perfect snack, and if you would have just used freshly grilled flour tortillas instead of bread, your head would have been clear!

Gotta go, now I’m hungry!!!
Miles

[Alpo]

US commercial ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute). Notice "Sporting". NATO spec ammo is loaded hotter than SAAMI commercial. At least the 9mm is. If that had been commercial ammo, they would have had to mark it +P, but since it is a military overrun, they stated NATO spec, and you are supposed to know what that means.

Ain't it fun, learning all this neat stuff?

[wingspar]

Thank you very much for that info. I may have known that in the past, but if I had, I’d forgot it. I’ve not been around guns much at all for the last 20 years. Well before internet forums where such a vast wealth of information is right at your fingertips. Last time I bought a gun, I had to do my research thru magazines and asking questions in stores. With the shortage of ammo these days, I was forced to order online, and was totally clueless on the +P and NATO being different than what I bought in the past. As I said, I’ll hang on to the stuff I just ordered till I get the new handgun, and find the proper ammo for the Camp 9.

I ordered some .22 ammo too. That was confusing, but I was able to muddle thru that one.

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by Alpo

US commercial ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute). Notice "Sporting". NATO spec ammo is loaded hotter than SAAMI commercial. At least the 9mm is. If that had been commercial ammo, they would have had to mark it +P, but since it is a military overrun, they stated NATO spec, and you are supposed to know what that means.

Ain't it fun, learning all this neat stuff?

i didnt know that alpo. i have some 38 special ammo that is us government overrun. wonder if it is hotter than normal

[Alpo]

No. Government 38 special stuff is puny. 130 grain FMJRN at around 800fps.

[wingspar]

Would I be correct in thinking that the Glock 17 & 19 and the Ruger SR9 can take the +P ammo? Seems like that would be so since both the military and police departments use the Glocks.

[gdmoody]

I do not own any of the three 9mm's mentioned, but from what I have read, YES they will all be able to handle the +P ammo.

[olehippy]

All Glocks are designed to handle both +P and +P+ (even higher pressure than +P) ammo. I have a 19 and it enjoys them. I rarely fire +P+, but when I have it didnt bother either of my Glocks (my 19 and 26)

I have read the Ruger can shoot +P, but not sure about +P+.

Miles

[wingspar]

Originally Posted by olehippy

All Glocks are designed to handle both +P and +P+ (even higher pressure than +P) ammo. I have a 19 and it enjoys them. I rarely fire +P+, but when I have it didnt bother either of my Glocks (my 19 and 26)

I have read the Ruger can shoot +P, but not sure about +P+.

Thanks for the confirmation. I’m mostly interested since I ordered a box of +P inadvertently, and want to make sure I can use it in my new handgun since I found out I can’t or shouldn’t use it in my Camp 9, which is what I was planning on shooting when I got the ammo, which will ship this afternoon. I couldn’t find any info on the SR9 and the ammo it can use, so I fired off an email to Ruger. I’ll share the reply when I get it. Last time they replied within 3 hours.

[wingspar]

Here is my reply from Ruger on the +P Ammo. The SR9 will take +P and +P+. That’s good to know, but I’ll probably stick with the regular ammo that I can also use in my Camp 9 and use the box of +P I already ordered in the new handgun.

I am in the process of determining which new handgun to buy. The SR9 is on my short list. From a discussion of ammo with others, I have this question. Will the SR9 handle +P and +P+ ammo?

Response:
The SR9 will handle both +P and +P+ ammunition.

[lhamlow]

Has anyone reloaded 9mm Makarov 90 gr JHP bullets into 9mm Luger Cases?
I used to own a 9mm Makarov, but do not anymore. However I have 9mm Luger pistols and plenty of Luger brass, but limited supply of 115 gr 9mm Luger JHP bullets.

[Alpo]

If you do it, it should not chamber.

9mm Luger uses a .355 bullet with a maximum outside case diameter of .380.

9mm Makarov uses a .361 bullet with an outside case diameter of .390.

Logically, if you put the bigger bullet in the Luger case, you will end up with the .390 mouth diameter, and the loaded cartridge won't fit in the chamber.

[lhamlow]

Alpo, Thanks for your reply regarding the Makarov bullets. I thought that may be the case, but knew someone with the expertise would know.