Can anyone help me on this? - The Firearms Forum

czndvet · 12-28-2011, 11:39 PM

I was using my metal detector at an old park in Montgomery, Al recently and found an old cartridge case about 4 or 5 inches deep. It's either brass or copper, as it has a green patina.

It's a centerfire case, rimmed, and as best I can measure it, it's about 5/8 inch in diameter, and about 1 and 13/16 inches long. The upper two-thirds is mashed flat so my measurements aren't precise.

The only markings I can find on it is a numeral, "2" on the bottom of the case.

If anyone can help I'd sure appreciate it.

woolleyworm · 12-28-2011, 11:42 PM

Welcome to TFF Czndvet! Is there any way you could post a pic? Is it 5/8" on the rim or on the case?

czndvet · 12-29-2011, 09:16 AM

The rim is 5/8". That's a pretty big bullet.

JLA · 12-29-2011, 10:23 AM

looks like an old .45/70 case

Alpo · 12-29-2011, 10:28 AM

I'm thinking more 50/70. 45/70 case is longer and rim is smaller.

gdmoody · 12-29-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLA

looks like an old .45/70 case

At first look, that is what I thought also.

JLA · 12-29-2011, 11:43 AM

Looking back im thinkin alpo may be right. The rim diameter is a bit fatter and the case stumpier. Definitely one of the 2 for sure.

czndvet · 12-29-2011, 02:25 PM

Thanks for y'all's help...how far back does either of those cartridges go?

Alpo · 12-29-2011, 02:51 PM

After the War Against Yankee Aggression, the North had bunches and bunches of muzzleloading rifles in inventory. The Allen Conversion was invented, which allowed the arsenal to modify those rifles to take fixed ammo. The fixed ammo they used was the 50/70, so that would be around 1866, 1867. Little while later the military went to a slightly smaller caliber cartridge. The 45/70. That was in 1873.

czndvet · 12-29-2011, 03:02 PM

Thanks...reason for asking was the park, Oak Park in Montgomery, AL, had some civil war activity. I found a mini ball there, 3-ring, several years ago and wondered if the cartridge case went back that far.

BobMcG · 12-29-2011, 04:20 PM

Also, being that it's under 2" long would lean it toward being a .50-70 @ 1.75" rather than the .45-70 which is just over 2" @ 2.105".

JLA · 12-29-2011, 07:49 PM

Yep. Id say its a good chance thats an original .50-70 case from the civila war era. It would have most likely been dropped by cavalrymen as they were usually the only troops issued carbines chambered for the newfangled self contained cartridges, breechloaders as they called them. Infantrymen would have carried .58 cal springfield riflemuskets if they were yankees and .577 cal enfield riflemuskets if they were rebels. Both frontloaders, id bet money the minie ball you found was for one of those 2 rifles.

Lots of history there.

The Duke · 12-29-2011, 10:49 PM

Me thinks it may date a little after the WBTS...Ive got an old 50-70 copper case I found many years ago...It is unusual in the fact that it has a center firing pin strike, but no visible primer...I read somewhere this is the way they originally produced early 'center fire' rifle cartridges...The primer was actually part of the case itself, but was not a rimfire...Ill see if I can find that article...

Im going to have to see if I can find that old case also...

Alpo · 12-30-2011, 10:20 AM

Duke, what you are talking about is called Benet priming.

Here's some 45 Colts, Benet primed. 2 ball loads, a shot load and some sectioned, so you can see how it works.

Alpo · 12-30-2011, 10:27 AM

Yes, that's post Civil War. First, during the war they didn't have that cartridge. And second, as Duke says, they were first Benet primed. That visible primer would be a later round. They continued to load the 50/70 for many years, even after the 45/70 came along. When the army went to the 45/70 they armed their Indian scouts and hunters, and anyone else that was vaguely connected with the Army, with the surplussed 50/70s. And, just like now, with the "The Army uses a 9mm. Why would anyone still use a 45", there were folks back then that thought the 50 was a much better cartridge than that pipsqueak 45/70, and stayed with it. Seems like Georgie Custer had a Remington roller in 50/70, at the Greasy Grass. Bill Cody's favorite buff gun was a 50/70 roller he called Lucretia Borgia, 'cause she was so deadly.

czndvet · 12-30-2011, 07:25 PM

I knew I came to the right place for help.

JLA · 12-30-2011, 08:10 PM

Alpo youre just a plethora of fun historical facts. im sure glad that dog didnt eat you...

12-28-2011, 11:39 PM	#1
czndvet Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: south central Alabama Posts: 12	Can anyone help me on this? I was using my metal detector at an old park in Montgomery, Al recently and found an old cartridge case about 4 or 5 inches deep. It's either brass or copper, as it has a green patina. It's a centerfire case, rimmed, and as best I can measure it, it's about 5/8 inch in diameter, and about 1 and 13/16 inches long. The upper two-thirds is mashed flat so my measurements aren't precise. The only markings I can find on it is a numeral, "2" on the bottom of the case. If anyone can help I'd sure appreciate it. --> Last edited by czndvet; 12-28-2011 at 11:42 PM..

12-28-2011, 11:42 PM	#2
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,883	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Welcome to TFF Czndvet! Is there any way you could post a pic? Is it 5/8" on the rim or on the case? __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

12-29-2011, 09:16 AM	#3
czndvet Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: south central Alabama Posts: 12	Re: Can anyone help me on this? The rim is 5/8". That's a pretty big bullet. Attached Images

12-29-2011, 10:23 AM	#4
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,319	Re: Can anyone help me on this? looks like an old .45/70 case __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

12-29-2011, 10:28 AM	#5
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Can anyone help me on this? I'm thinking more 50/70. 45/70 case is longer and rim is smaller. Attached Images __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies. Last edited by Alpo; 12-29-2011 at 10:30 AM..

12-29-2011, 11:43 AM	#7
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,319	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Looking back im thinkin alpo may be right. The rim diameter is a bit fatter and the case stumpier. Definitely one of the 2 for sure. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

12-29-2011, 02:25 PM	#8
czndvet Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: south central Alabama Posts: 12	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Thanks for y'all's help...how far back does either of those cartridges go? __________________ In memory of SFC William Sherril Stinson, KIA near Quang Tri City, 08 Jan 1973.

12-29-2011, 02:51 PM	#9
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Can anyone help me on this? After the War Against Yankee Aggression, the North had bunches and bunches of muzzleloading rifles in inventory. The Allen Conversion was invented, which allowed the arsenal to modify those rifles to take fixed ammo. The fixed ammo they used was the 50/70, so that would be around 1866, 1867. Little while later the military went to a slightly smaller caliber cartridge. The 45/70. That was in 1873. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

12-29-2011, 03:02 PM	#10
czndvet Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: south central Alabama Posts: 12	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Thanks...reason for asking was the park, Oak Park in Montgomery, AL, had some civil war activity. I found a mini ball there, 3-ring, several years ago and wondered if the cartridge case went back that far. __________________ In memory of SFC William Sherril Stinson, KIA near Quang Tri City, 08 Jan 1973.

12-29-2011, 04:20 PM	#11
BobMcG Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Somewhere in the Twilight Zone. Contributor Posts: 1,119	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Also, being that it's under 2" long would lean it toward being a .50-70 @ 1.75" rather than the .45-70 which is just over 2" @ 2.105".

12-29-2011, 07:49 PM	#12
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,319	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Yep. Id say its a good chance thats an original .50-70 case from the civila war era. It would have most likely been dropped by cavalrymen as they were usually the only troops issued carbines chambered for the newfangled self contained cartridges, breechloaders as they called them. Infantrymen would have carried .58 cal springfield riflemuskets if they were yankees and .577 cal enfield riflemuskets if they were rebels. Both frontloaders, id bet money the minie ball you found was for one of those 2 rifles. Lots of history there. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

12-29-2011, 10:49 PM	#13
The Duke Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NW Louisiana Posts: 813	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Me thinks it may date a little after the WBTS...Ive got an old 50-70 copper case I found many years ago...It is unusual in the fact that it has a center firing pin strike, but no visible primer...I read somewhere this is the way they originally produced early 'center fire' rifle cartridges...The primer was actually part of the case itself, but was not a rimfire...Ill see if I can find that article... Im going to have to see if I can find that old case also... __________________ Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

12-30-2011, 10:20 AM	#14
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Duke, what you are talking about is called Benet priming. Here's some 45 Colts, Benet primed. 2 ball loads, a shot load and some sectioned, so you can see how it works. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

12-30-2011, 10:27 AM	#15
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Yes, that's post Civil War. First, during the war they didn't have that cartridge. And second, as Duke says, they were first Benet primed. That visible primer would be a later round. They continued to load the 50/70 for many years, even after the 45/70 came along. When the army went to the 45/70 they armed their Indian scouts and hunters, and anyone else that was vaguely connected with the Army, with the surplussed 50/70s. And, just like now, with the "The Army uses a 9mm. Why would anyone still use a 45", there were folks back then that thought the 50 was a much better cartridge than that pipsqueak 45/70, and stayed with it. Seems like Georgie Custer had a Remington roller in 50/70, at the Greasy Grass. Bill Cody's favorite buff gun was a 50/70 roller he called Lucretia Borgia, 'cause she was so deadly. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

12-30-2011, 07:25 PM	#16
czndvet Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: south central Alabama Posts: 12	Re: Can anyone help me on this? I knew I came to the right place for help. __________________ In memory of SFC William Sherril Stinson, KIA near Quang Tri City, 08 Jan 1973.

12-30-2011, 08:10 PM	#17
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,319	Re: Can anyone help me on this? Alpo youre just a plethora of fun historical facts. im sure glad that dog didnt eat you... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!