Legal ramifications???

[Crpdeth]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, but Plano brought up an interesting subject by mentioning he didn't use hand loads in his personal protection firearm...I've never heard of anything like this before...Does the law frown on handloads for self defense or something? Clue me in here guys.


~Crp

[Xracer]

"Does the law frown on handloads for self defense or something? Clue me in here guys."

There's always the chance that if you shoot some scumball in self defense, you could be sued by him or his family, or possibly even be charged with a crime by some ambitious prosecutor.

In that case, if you used handloads, you could then be portrayed as some "gun nut" who makes "super-duper killer bullets" to go around shooting innocent people.

It's a stretch, to be sure....but it has happened.

[ACC]

I've been rolloing my own for self defense for 20 years,defended myself with them also,never was brought up in my trial,and if it had,well you load to sammi specs,that's what they have loading manuals for!!!!!

[gpostal]

I don’t know if it is just one of those urban legends ,or much truth to it ,but everyone says the jury/prosecuting attorney would look down up on hand loads for a self defense ,but the way I look at it ,if it is a justified shooting it should never make it to the jury or attorney

I have also heard this debate with shotgun loads ,hunting vs. buck shot ,and it you use a handgun that has had trigger/smith work done to it ,mainly a light trigger ,you can bet your bottom dollar if someone comes in my house and is threatening me or mine ,they WILL be chewing on a nice .45 from my Wilson with a light trigger and all

[ACC]

even if it's justified,you WILL be arrested,you WILL be brought before a grand jury,and, if you have a prosecutor that wants to make a name for himself,you WILL be prosecuted. Beleive me!!!! I was there. The cival suit was a nightmare also.cost me $35,000
back in 1982,and probably a whole lot more to-day.
C&Rammo

[inplanotx]

This argument has gone on for a long time. There was a person, Masood Ayoob who was the premier consultant to many defendants on this issue of handloads vs. factory. Since you have control of your handloads, you can make those nasty rounds even worse by using more powder or what have you. Masood was an expert witness on this. He used to write for several gun magazines until his death recently. Since I find factory rounds have two major advantages, I use them.

#1) Factory rounds are more likely to go "bang" than a mishandled handload. Now, I have had only one misfire in my 20 or so years of reloading and it was a shotshell that I forgot to add powder to. No harm was done, but if that was for defense. I would have been dead. Never had a factory round not go bang due to a mistake of the manufacturer.

$2) Manufacturers of ammunition have to go by a SAAMI standard loading reference as far as pressure and other particulars go. A handloader, although cautioned repeatedly about staying inside the specs, has been known to roam, wildly at times. Ask any gun dealer to show you what happens when someone doubles the powder charge by accident or ups the load to "see what happens". There are many blown up guns that I have seen in my years!

Well, that's my two cents. Ayoob has written many books on the subject, if you are interrested, find them. They are very well written and fact based.

[ACC]

BTW, I am from NH(where massad lives), I've know "MAS" for quite a long time, and just spoke to him Monday,he is alive and well in FLA. Anyway, do you know what it would take for the prosecutor to find out if your "hand loads" were to SAMMI specs. or not. It would not be an issue,if it wasn't brought up, in my trial it was never even mentioned about what manufacturer I used to put the scum bag down!!!!!
I am not arguing the use of hand loads vs a known mfg.All iam saying is that through my experiance it wasn't an issue!!! and anyone who loads ammo for their own enjoyment and bends the rules,should have their guns blow up!!!!!!!! It's not rocket science
all you have to do is pay attention,and you won't get any squibs

[inplanotx]

Well, glad to hear he is alive. I had heard somewhere that he had died. Can't recall where. Anyway, I just will not use handloads in my CCW weapon when carried. I do practise with hanloads though. I'm not arguing, just stating my preferences. In case the prosecutor ever does want to try something like that when and if it becomes my time to defend myself. One less worry!

[Marlin]

If a similar case were to have come before me and the issue arose, I would have sustained any objection by the defense as to any information about the cartridge being germane or of any relevancy

The question in point would be self-defense and whether or not an act was covered under justifiable homicide rules of law.

Worth 2¢, maybe?

[ACC]

thank you Marlin now that I am a manufacturer, it is really a mute point. I'm just trying to set the record straight on this issue is all.
C&Rammo

[Crpdeth]

Wow, interesting debate indeed...As stated, I've never even considered this as an issue.


Thanks guys



~Crp

[rnshooter]

hey guys,
this is a great post and i have enjoyed reading it thoroughly.

C&R...i would like to know more about what happened to you. please fill me in to how you had to defend yourself. i am always interested in hearing other accounts of self defense. thanks

be safe

[Crpdeth]

C&R...i would like to know more about what happened to you

I was interested as well, just didn't ask...My shotgun trigger was probabally 4lbs of pressure away from ending a mans life several years ago, so I have been very close to having to live through the ordeal myself...I often thank the Lord that the situation disolved in a peacefull manner.



~Crp

[inplanotx]

Okay, maybe I should have added more info to this when I stated that Massad Ayoob (thanks for the correct spelling) wrote that he advocated "not" using reloads in a self defense situation.

Case in point. I lived in Phoenix, AZ from 1978 to 1989, during which time there was NO CCW permits in that state! Period! You could carry a weapon as long as it was in plain sight or any of the pistol or holster could be seen below or outside your clothing! It had to stand out in plain sight. You could also carry in your vehicle if the weapon was carried on the dashboard or on top of the seat where it could be seen. You could not carry under the seat, nor could you carry in the glove box as this was considered concealed.

I apologize that you had your problem in a state who's Motto is "Live Free Or Die" and that no CCW is necessary. I did not intend to inference your legal position in any way to what I had read many years before. I also do not know when this happened to you and think that someone defending theirself in a state such as NH, where gun laws are so relaxed, is abominable. However, what I said still stands.

In the easrly 80's I read an article by Massad Ayoob where he clearly stated that at that time, using reloads was not conducive to going to trial on a self defense charge. This is why I changed from using reloads to FACTORY ONLY! I believe that the reload in question was a .38 special with a 146 grain full wadcutter turned around 180 degrees to insure that the bullet coming at the person was with the base first and opened to maximum dimensions. I still hear of this load today!

Since you are such a close friend of Mr. Ayoob, and whose opinion I respect highly, maybe you can contact him again and ask if he will respond to this. I have read many of his books and articles and would welcome, based on dated fact, his opinion on the subject! It may not matter today or be germane to a case today, but in the early days, it was. Thanks for your help!

One more question if you please. Can I have the case number of your trial so we can intelligently look at this situation? This has not occurred here before and most would like to understand the ramifications of using deadly force in a situation. Thanks.

[ACC]

it did not happen in NH, it was in Mass.go figure,if it happened In NH Iwould have not gone to trial,anyway,it was in1982,my cousin and myself were standing in line at the boston gardens waiting for tickets(was a celtic fan at the time).An African american decided he wanted my cousins gold chain that hewas wearing around his neck.that was a big think back then,it was called chain snatchin.He stabbed my cousin in the back,grabbed the chain,I interceded, and he lunged at me with the knife, I grabbed the knife with my hand and at the same time pulled my weapon,and pulled him into me,rocked back on my heels,and shot him4 times at close range.my cousin almost died,the knife hit an artery near his spleen.I was brought up on charges of excessive force,and 2nd degree man slaughter.took 8 stitches in the inside of the hand,and 6 on the outside.I'll have to dig through the old paper work to get the case# for you,and i will talk to "Mas" and tell him what a rucus he started over his statements.maybe I'll get him on TFF

[ACC]

BTW in NH you have to have a pistol permit to carry concealed,it's good for 4 years, however,all you need is a drivers lic to purchase any fire arm.

[inplanotx]

Okay, now I understand. I used to live in Westborough, MA for four years. That tells me the whole story. I'm sorry about the situation, the perp deserved what he got, however, you did not.
I could not wait to get out of that state and back down South. Went there from AZ in 89 and returned to Texas in 93. Was glad to get out.

It would be great to have someone like Massad on the board. Think of all the brain picking we could do. I hope you can talk him into just dropping by once in a while. I have the greatest respect for his knowledge.

[SouthernMoss]

That would be great to have Ayoob on the forum. I read one of his articles just the other day: "Armed and Female." Very informative, and had some great tips that I can't wait to try.

[ACC]

no need to apologize, what happened,happened, from the results of all this,I can't and never will cary in the state of mass.
ever again,oh well I guess I'll be another "criminal" in their eyes.
I never got to that state without some form of protection.
I'll see if I can "hook" up with "Mas" again, he's back and forth between FL. and here, and tough to get,but I'll leave him a message to get back to me.He's a character. hopefully he can give us some words or wisdom

[bompa]

If I can remember the law in this state back then,it stated that you could not use more force to defend yourself than what is used againist you.. So if you had used a knife on said BG all would have been ok... Remember being told,by local chief, that should someone break into your home or office and threaten your life if there was any way possible to retreat that was the accepted policy,not resistance and counterthreat..
Example,,what would you do to a rapist ?? Rape him of coarse..That is what the law allowes....Funny but not funny...

[Greg]

When the situation occurs, you are going to do what you need to at the time, and not worry about ramifications. However, depending what part of the country you are in, what sex you are, if you are minority or not, ANYTHING can, and will be used against you. Sad, but true. None of those things should matter, only the circumstance, but they will be used and considered. You will be second guessed to death and every circumstance possible critiqued. Defending yourself, or your loved ones, with any type of deadly force is a taboo in many parts of our country. Fortunately, I don't live in those parts.

What are you suppose to do? Make sure you get your wife and kids to the furthest point of entry in your house before you use force to protect the perps rights? As far as I am concerned, the perps' rights got cancelled when they decided to enter my home. In some areas you will be o.k., in others you will not. How can the law differ due to location and mindset? Oh well, go figure...

In England, you are considered uncivilized and primitive by the legal system and the media if you do anything violent to someone breaking into your own home! Thank God it hasn't got that bad-yet.

Below is an old article from Shooting times you might like to read:

Article

[Marlin]

That's a good article, Greg.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Everyone here should take the time to read it, and, as I, copy it into your files for future reference.

[glocknut]

Originally posted by bompa
If I can remember the law in this state back then,it stated that you could not use more force to defend yourself than what is used againist you.. So if you had used a knife on said BG all would have been ok...

Thats the way it is here.....

It is the most brainless concept ever conceived!!!

I'd like to see the cops here follow that stupid idea themselvs...



mike

[Milos]

Speaking of the gentleman, I've just recently picked up the 5th edition of the Gun Digest(r) book of combat handgunnery. If the chance arises, please tell Mr. Ayoob that his younger readers would love the chance to pick his brain and 2nd, the book was DEFINITELY worth the $25 plunked down for it. This book taught me, among other things, how to load my Taurus 608 faster. It takes 8 rds so no speedloaders or full moon clips are available for it; at least not that I can find. Speaking of which, if any are found, please let me know! I would be very grateful.

Great post guys...most informative...an atta-boy to all that contributed....


swede