Model 1903 Mannlicher 7x57

[Bill Blower]

I've got a Model 1903 Mannlicher 7x57 that was given to my son by his father in law and we'd like some information on the age, etc. We understand that most Model 1903s were in 6.5x54 with a full stock. Since this rifle has a half stock and is a 7x57, it is probably a custom rifle or has been rebored. There is a claw mount for a scope, and we're wondering what the chances are of getting the rest of the mount. Any and all information would be much appreciated.

[Xracer]

Hi Bill......welcome to TFF.

Beautiful rifle.....but it might be a Model 1910 and not a 1903. The 1910 was available as a half-stocked rifle (the carbine had a full length stock) and was offered in a number of calibers, including 7x57.

[Bill Blower]

Xracer
Thank you.
That is the kind of information that we are looking for. I have since found out that it was made in 1919. The model number is mostly covered by the front claw mount but the bottom of the numbers look like they are 1903.
Do you know any way to distinguish model 1903 from 1910, other than the short stock & caliber?
Thanks again,
Bill

[Xracer]

Originally Posted by Bill Blower

Do you know any way to distinguish model 1903 from 1910, other than the short stock & caliber?

Truthfully Bill....no.

The various carbines (1903, 1905, 1908, & 1910) all had a full length stock. I believe that the rifles (same models) were available in either full or half stocks and both carbines & rifles were available with single or double set triggers.

The only real difference with each succeeding model was that the newer model was available in different calibers.

1903 (carbine & rifle) - 6.5x54mm M-S

1905 (carbine & rifle) - 9x56mm M-S

1908 (carbine & rifle) - 8x56mm M-S

1910 (carbine & rifle) - 9x56mm M-S, 7x57mm, 8x57mm

1924 High Velocity Sporting Rifle - .30-06, 7x64mm, 8x60mm, 9.3x62mm, 10.75x68mm

I would guess from the 1919 build date & caliber, that yours is a Model 1910.....but I'm not really sure.

Your's appears to be in really nice shape, and if it's a 1910, the Blue Book value is:

95% - $900
90% - $700

[Bill Blower]

Thans Xracer:

I'll keep looking around and try to pin down the model. I forgot to mention to start with that it has a 17 3/4" barrel. If I could find another rifle like this for under $1000 I would grab it for myself!

Bill

[stash247]

Bill, look at your chamber markings; This was originally a 6.5mm rifle (The stamp at 1clock) If now in 7X57, it has been re-bored.
I'll dig around here and see what I can find, on the subject, but the one thing I am certain of, is that if it was rebored, there will be evidence of re-work, or replacement, to be found on the spool of the magazine; these were unique to any given caliber, and seldom would feed, with another.
The 6.5 proof mark is at 1 oclock, down on the rh side, lower, is what appears to be a 7X57 proof.
Please post a pic of those markings, as it will be a big aid in IDing the rifle, accurately!
Thanks.

[Bill Blower]

Stash247
I can't find any evidence of rework on the spool. It has the same serial number & other than that a "K" in one spot. There is 1848 stamped near the eject button.
I'm sending more proof pics.
Bill

[Mark]

IMO, the spool has been cobbled on. The 6.5X54's I've seen all had immaculate polished spools.
A picture of the bolt face may help. The 6.5X54 is .450 ish, the 7X57 is .473 ish. The bolt face would have to be opened up for this conversion. There may be witness of the machining.
Mark

[Bill Blower]

Mark,
Thanks for your input. I am sending pics of the bolt face to see if that will help.
Bill

[Mark]

Boy, do I feel dumb.

I thought the bolt face was recessed like a Mauser. Not really much help here.
Mark

[Bill Blower]

Mark:

Nice try anyway, and that explains why I could'nt find a place on the bolt face to measure!

Maybe those new proof mark pics I sent will help solve the mystery.

Bill.

[stash247]

Bill, blow in Mark's ear: Mausers have a flat bolt face, too!
If a grand would solve all these problems, I'd love to offer this old rifle a new home!
More to the point, regardless of the model, you have a finely crafted rifle, well worth whatever maintainance it requires, that will do nothing but appreciate, in value! Hanging the bolt handle in the middle was a goofy thing to do, back then, I am told, but seems to have eliminated all the binding that other rifles encountered, back then. The rotary spool magazine was unique to the Mannlicher Schoenauer, and Savage, in the M-99.
Takedown, requiring nothing but a loaded round, for a tool, also, unique, to the rifle.
I truly hope that your son in law chooses never to sell this rifle, as it is irreplacable, but, should he choose otherwise, I have a place for it, and cash.

[Bill Blower]

stash247
It's my son that has the gun, and he knows how lucky he is. He also has a son who is interested in hunting so this beauty will be in the family for a long , long time!
I gather that the pics of the proofs didn't prove anything.
Anyway I learned from this, and thank you all very, very much for your efforts.
I will be keeping my eyes open for one for myself!

Bill

[ibtrukn]

BB, VERY nice old Steyr, if it was kal22 I wood REELY want it. as far as those claw mounts, in my somewot limited (ok non xistent) xperiance, those scopes were setup for eaach individual rifle, the "hole" spacing can differ, sumtimes by a bunch. a pal of mine just fitted a Zeiss w/claw to a nokout cape gun by hogging the mounts a little bit. luckily the lateral spacing was almost xactly the same. just hadto take off a bit of inside metal to make the fit. but he was fortunate (also a classA #1 gunsmith). Look around out there it just like wimen, the chase is 1/2 the fun


ps:my book indicates mod 1910 has double set trigger & 2 leaf rear site. does yours? if not prally (mebbe) a reworked 1903, still a prize ( and U no howta take a good pic.!

[Bill Blower]

ibtrukn:
OK good stuff. I guess that's one problem with detach scopes, they get separated from the gun!

This gun has the double trigs and two leaf sight, but I took a closer look at the little bit of Mod# that you can still see that isn't covered by the scope mount (check new pic) and to the right of the scope alignment mark the numbers are round on the bottom as in 903, 905, etc. so it is pre 1910. Did they make these early models even after the M 1910 came out? If not then my manuf. date of 1919 would be wrong.

Can someone with an early model check their bolt face and see if the extractor has the same amout of meat on it? Mine wouldn't be changed very much, because (by checking the sizes of the 6.5 and 7mm in Barnes "cartridges of the world") there would only have to be about .012 taken off on each side, .023 altogether.

Bill

[Bill Blower]

After that last post I realised that 1919 is probably right because the proof mark STMG/12g I understand puts it newer than 1912 and the bolt release puts it older than 1924, so if you take out the WW I years 1919 looks good.

Bill

[nevadany]

if it's worth anything to the owner of this rifle, you can try contacting NECG (New England Custom Gun) about trying to find claw mount rings for this rifle. they wont be drop in because the rings are hand fitted to to the bases, but they might have something that will work and can be fit. if they do, you will have to send the rifle to them so they can fit the rings, and it wont be cheap!

DW

[Bill Blower]

Thank you nevadany.
I will check out that source and a few others and try and come up with something. This rifle will be used for hunting and it would be a shame not to have a scope on it.
If anyone is interested, a local gunsmith informs me that they made the Mod.1903 up untill 1937.
Bill

[Mark]

Hi Bill,
I finally bought a book, Mannlicher Rifles and Pistols by Walter Smith. The book was a big disappointment, not much in it about sporters.
There was mention about a 7X57 being produced in a 1903 style rifle, NOT a 1903, but it is recorded as having a 20 inch barrel. This may give us a clue.

I am constantly humbled at the knowledge brought forward by the members of this forum. With the information already revealed concerning the proof marks, if there is an 18 inch barrel, I'm wondering if we couldn't assume the rifle has been rebored to 7 X 57. I can't post pictures, but my 1903 spool magazine is polished very well. The other 6.5X54 MS magazine spools I've seen are the same. Yours looks like it's been cobbled on.
I thought I was on to something with the bolt face, but the bolt face is flat on the 1903. Mauser bolt faces need to be machined to accept anything larger than a .473 dia. cartridge head, and a 6.5 X 54 is like .450. If there was .010 removed from the ejector, I sure can't tell, and with normal clearances, who knows if a 7 X 57 would work with a 6.5 X 54 ejector or not?

The Blue Book of Gun Values has a mention about the 1903's being found with corroded bores. Putting 2 + 2 together, we might come up with 5 in this case, but perhaps there was a reboring to 7 X 57 to clean up the bore. The spool would have to of had .010 per surface to accommodate the larger diameter 7X57 cartridge. This would explain the cobbling. I'm thinking overall length would work, but if not, the 7X57 bolt stop could have been installed.

I'm really wondering if you don't have a 6.5 X 54 MS that has been reworked by the factory to use a 7 X 57 cartridge?????????????????????
Measure the length of the barrel.

I really need to appologize, I really love stuff like this. I don't need to be cured, just relieve the symptoms. LOL
Mark

[Bill Blower]

Mark:

There's a good chance that you are right & that this is probably a M. 1903 built in 1919 that has been factory rebored to 7X57 possibly in 1937 (proof mark 637). The spool has the same ser.# but looks like it has been worked on. A local gun smith says that the bolt head is probably replaceable between the two calibers if necessary.

The barrel is 17 3/4" & it does not appear to be altered.

Too bad your new book didn't have more info on sporters. Does anyone know of such a book? I have one on German proof marks on order.

If I come up with anything else, I'll let you know.

Bill

[Xracer]

Bill.....another thing puzzles me. That may not be the original stock (although it looks original to the gun) either.

A 17 3/4" barrel would be the carbine, and AFIK all the carbines had the full length Mannlicher stock.

It's a puzzlement!!!!

[Mark]

I'm not saying this happened but.................

The forearm on the 1903's is pretty fragile. If there was a mishap in over 85 years, the slender forearm end may need to have been amputated. Fitting a sling swivel to the barrel, and finishing the end of the stock to make it look like it grew that way could be an explanation.
I sure don't know this for certain.
Mark

[Bill Blower]

Xracer & Mark

There is a matching Ser.# on the stock. If it had a full stock originally it could have been cut down & the swivel ring put on, but I can't see any sign of that and I'm thinking that if the stock was damaged it probably would have been easier to restock it.

I may never know.

I know I've learned a bunch since I first posted here though.

Much appreciated.

Bill

[trued]

Hi,

I´m from Austria and own a M1908 Stutzen (full-stock) 8x56M-S
and a M1950 Rifle 7x64.

The M 1910 was not chambered as 9x56M-S (that was the M 1905),
but 9,5x57M-S which was also known as 9,5x56M-S
I´m not sure if M1910´s were chambered 7x57 and 8x57IS, but you (Xracer) could be right.
6,5x64M-S (Model1903 and the ones made after WWII) full-stocks always had 45cm (18in)barrels, the other fullstock rifles had 50cm (20in).

The Models were named after their introduction and kept their name. (like a Winchester 1892 made in 1895 is a 1892 and not named 1894 since 1894 and the new model - you know what I mean?)

I think that there were M-S in 7x57 before end of WWI. As I don´t know
if they made any hunting rifles during WWI, let´s say that there were 7x57s
before 1914. So it could be that after introduction of model 1910
9,5x57M-S it was also made as 7x57 and ev. 8x57IS. As all the M-S cartridges are for very short actions and the M1924 had a longer action and wider mag, and the 7x57 fits the M1910 this also seems correct.

I know a single-shot 7x57 full-stock made in the early 20ies whithout magazine, as it was forbidden to made magazine rifles for the losers of WWI for some time (Contracts of Versailles). But rifles were made 1919 and maybe 1920 an for export? Maybe it was until 1924 so M1924 was introduced. (As often with M-S it´s impossible to read the model stamping because of the front sight mount on this rifle).

As said before your rifle is a M1903 rebareled to 7x57, because

You said the marks under the mount looks like 1903!!!

The barrel lenght of 17 3/4 in = 45cm, BUT: it does´t fit to a half-stock rifle. And always think of custom barrel lenght which was definitley available.

The low serial number 1848 beside the magazine button. To me this seems rather early, so a M1903. (Although I don´t know the exakt mode of numbering)
The number on the mag 8394 doesn´t fit to this - maybe part of the rechambering? Do 6,5x54 and 7x57 fit the same mag? (They will in a Mauser action-style mag, but in the rotary?)
Serial number on System and barrel are also 8394 so 1848 doesn´t fit ?????? seen this too late
What about serial number on bolt?

The other numbers seem to be Nitro-test-shooting-marks and it´s date, but be aware that this also can tells about rebarreling date, because test shooting was necassary again. (According to Austrian law)

There are different ways of rebarreling, one of them is to drill the old one bigger. Nowadys this is more expensive than a new barrel and so hardley done any more.

I THINK you have a M1903 originally 6,5x54M-S full-stock with rebarreld old 45cm barrel and later custom refitted stock (original might been broken).

Date is definitley between 1903 and 1939, or before your test shoot which could be 1919 because of the "19" mark.
The old caliber 6,5 is stamped and because of this I think test shooting for the 6,5x54 was also not overstamped.

With the small " . " before and after the "19", which are very typical for year marks, it really looks like 1919 being date of first nitro-test shooting for the 6,5x54 and so date of birth.

There is also "7,1" marked for the 7x57 which has actually bullet-dia .284 = 7,2mm. (This was not always very accurate). Date of rechambering could be 1957 because of the "57", whith but i´m not sure of this mark. Maybe 1937 or 1952, but I think "652" and "637" are controller marks with the two test shootings. Also not sure about the "53 1/2".

Hope this could help

[stash247]

Bill, ask the son to push the father in law's buttons, about where the rifle came from! He may be a wealth of knowledge!
If it were a 'Custer' era rifle, provenance would be value!
At the least. the FIL might know(?) from where he got the rifle, bringing you one step closer, assuming survivors, as to the rifle's origin!