Smith and Wesson .38 - The Firearms Forum

SwiftySwift · 10-16-2010, 08:49 PM

My mum got me an old .38 Smith and Wesson when I got out of the Navy, and I really need help identifying the model, about how much it's worth, and hopefully, the approximate year. She paid about three hundred for it. I know I can contact S&W, but I'd hate to waste $50 on a piece of paper for a $100 gun, haha. Here are some clues... If you need anything else, please PM or email me, and I'll be more then happy to take care of it.

Top of barrel:
SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A
PATENTED FEB.6.06. SEPT.14.09. DEC. 14.4
Side of barrel:
.38 S & W SPECIAL CTG
R. side of frame:
S&W insignia
Bottom of grip:
465XX
On the swing arm:
3207
Inside, next to swing arm:
3207

5 screws, Non adjustable sights, square butt, 4 inch barrel, no lanyard ring...

Thanks for your time!

zswift@rocketmail.com

johnlives4christ · 10-16-2010, 11:28 PM

this is a smith and wesson model military and police model. it also is known more commonly today as the model 10. although i cannot give you the exact year. i had a 4 screw model that was made in 58, if im not mistaken. so your gun must be older then that.

you can call smith and wesson and they should be able to tell you the year of manufacture on you gun for no charge. only to get a factory letter do they charge you.

Alpo · 10-17-2010, 06:26 AM

That guns looks just wonderful, for being made in 1903.

Except, with that SN, it should be a round butt (they didn't start making square butts until 62450). They also were not making 5-screws yet.

I believe you listed the wrong serial number. Maybe one more X?

SwiftySwift · 10-17-2010, 11:20 AM

I can try and attach a picture of it, but they aren't really coming out. The number on the bottom is "46598" and there's not pitting or distortion on the bottom that would lead me to believe there was a number missing... There's no "V" or "C" or anything. The frame is all original, as are the grips, as far as I'm aware (I know next to nothing about revolvers)
Thank you for all of your help!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...01017-0902.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...01017-0908.jpg

johnlives4christ · 10-17-2010, 11:29 AM

id call smith and wesson and clear it up

SwiftySwift · 10-17-2010, 11:49 AM

When I called, it said I needed an extension number... Haha.

Alpo · 10-17-2010, 12:34 PM

Look at the number on the bottom of the barrel, next to the frame.

SwiftySwift · 10-17-2010, 12:54 PM

johnlives4christ · 10-17-2010, 01:26 PM

when i've called smith i always use this number and push through some options until i get to talk to a person 1-800-331-0852

Jim K · 10-17-2010, 07:17 PM

(Note that the OP's two big pics are reversed.)

That gun is the Model 1905, Fourth Change, which is obvious from the presence of the rebound slide pin, the screw in front of the trigger guard, and the small end ejector rod. I think the OP is somehow misreading the serial number; could it be 465xxx (i.e., six digits)? 465xxx would date to the mid-1920's and those grips would be consistent with that period.

Jim

SwiftySwift · 10-17-2010, 07:44 PM

Oh ye of little faith, haha. So, as mentioned above, there are only 5 digits in the SN. I had a link to two different pictures, so here is a third. The numbers, though not clearly legible, are definitely countable, proving there really are only 5. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, just trying to find out what kinda gun this is and about how much it's worth, haha.

fleetwood1976 · 10-17-2010, 10:58 PM

I have a standard catalog of smith and wesson 3rd ed. that says it estimates square butts at around 58,000. I would say it could be a very early square but version. I would definetly give $300 for it.

fleetwood1976 · 10-17-2010, 11:01 PM

like jim says it don't add up. maybe it was rebarreled and a new crane, extractor, Etc?

SwiftySwift · 10-17-2010, 11:30 PM

Fleetwood, then wouldn't the number on the swingarm, and inside of the swingarm (built onto the frame) be different? And, Jim, where is the rebound slide pin?

Jim K · 10-18-2010, 01:12 PM

The rebound slide was not used in the first M&P models; a rebound lever was used instead. The rebound slide is a rectangular steel "box" that moves back and forth to push the hammer back when the trigger is released. The trigger spring is inside the rebound slide. The spring butts against a pin in the frame. In modern guns the end of the pin is polished down and usually can't be seen, but at that time they didn't bother and the round end of the pin can be seen just above and to the front of the top of the grip.

The problem is that the change to the rebound slide took place with the .38 Hand Ejector, Model 1905, First Change. In fact, that WAS the "First Change." The serial numbers for the First change start at 73,251. So no S&W revoolver earlier than that could possibly have that pin in that piace. (No, they didn't - couldn't - retrofit earlier guns.)

Further, that gun has the screw in front that retains the new type cylinder stop; that change took place with the original 1905 model, at serial number 62,450. There is no way an S&W M&P earlier than that would have that screw.

The other change noted is the small ejector rod head. That, and the accompanying barrel change, were made with the Model 1905 Fourth Change, at # 241704, about 1915, While the new ejector rod would fit in the old cylinder, the barrel difference rules out an ejector rod replacement.

So, things just plain don't add up. That serial number is just not consistent with the rest of the gun. I have no explanation except one possibility.

That is that the original gun with serial number 465xx was damaged and sent to the factory for repair. Repair was impossible, so the factory replaced the whole gun with a then-new model and numbered it the same as the original gun to avoid any problems if the gun was registered. That was done by both S&W and Colt and is the only thing that makes sense.

Jim

fleetwood1976 · 10-18-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

So, things just plain don't add up. That serial number is just not consistent with the rest of the gun. I have no explanation except one possibility.

That is that the original gun with serial number 465xx was damaged and sent to the factory for repair. Repair was impossible, so the factory replaced the whole gun with a then-new model and numbered it the same as the original gun to avoid any problems if the gun was registered. That was done by both S&W and Colt and is the only thing that makes sense.

Jim

Would this make it more valuable or just a conversation piece. I myself think it would be cool if that was the case, much like the possible ATF Re-serial numbered post a while back.

grampawmike · 10-18-2010, 07:48 PM

FWIW, blow the second pic from Photobucket (#0908) up to anywhere between 150%/400% and take a look at the third digit and the sixth(?) digit. Both appear to be washed out, however there does appear that there was a number in the sixth position at one time. Just a shallow dimple now. JMHO Mike

SwiftySwift · 10-18-2010, 09:51 PM

It was just a pic on my camera phone... In person, the numbers are very clean cut.

Jim, if it was how you said, would they be able to tell me what model they replaced the original 46598 with? Or what had happened to it?

fleetwood1976 · 10-18-2010, 10:06 PM

serial number should have a * after it if it was repaired at the factory.

Jim K · 10-19-2010, 05:50 PM

Not always on the asterisk. At different times, they used other markings and not always after the serial number. There really would have been no need; they destroyed the old frame so there was still only one gun of that number.

If my guess is correct, I doubt there is a lot of value added; it would be something of an oddity, but IMHO nothing that would add up to big bucks.

Well, if the serial number was transferred from an older gun, the new gun is a Model 1905, Fourth Change (1915-1942). If Grampawmike is correct and there is or was a sixth digit (i.e., 465xxx), the gun dates from sometime in the 1920's.

Jim

10-16-2010, 08:49 PM	#1
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Smith and Wesson .38 My mum got me an old .38 Smith and Wesson when I got out of the Navy, and I really need help identifying the model, about how much it's worth, and hopefully, the approximate year. She paid about three hundred for it. I know I can contact S&W, but I'd hate to waste $50 on a piece of paper for a $100 gun, haha. Here are some clues... If you need anything else, please PM or email me, and I'll be more then happy to take care of it. Top of barrel: SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A PATENTED FEB.6.06. SEPT.14.09. DEC. 14.4 Side of barrel: .38 S & W SPECIAL CTG R. side of frame: S&W insignia Bottom of grip: 465XX On the swing arm: 3207 Inside, next to swing arm: 3207 5 screws, Non adjustable sights, square butt, 4 inch barrel, no lanyard ring... Thanks for your time! zswift@rocketmail.com Attached Images -->

10-16-2010, 11:28 PM	#2
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 this is a smith and wesson model military and police model. it also is known more commonly today as the model 10. although i cannot give you the exact year. i had a 4 screw model that was made in 58, if im not mistaken. so your gun must be older then that. you can call smith and wesson and they should be able to tell you the year of manufacture on you gun for no charge. only to get a factory letter do they charge you.

10-17-2010, 06:26 AM	#3
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 That guns looks just wonderful, for being made in 1903. Except, with that SN, it should be a round butt (they didn't start making square butts until 62450). They also were not making 5-screws yet. I believe you listed the wrong serial number. Maybe one more X? __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies. Last edited by Alpo; 10-17-2010 at 06:31 AM..

10-17-2010, 11:20 AM	#4
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 I can try and attach a picture of it, but they aren't really coming out. The number on the bottom is "46598" and there's not pitting or distortion on the bottom that would lead me to believe there was a number missing... There's no "V" or "C" or anything. The frame is all original, as are the grips, as far as I'm aware (I know next to nothing about revolvers) Thank you for all of your help! http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...01017-0902.jpg http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...01017-0908.jpg Last edited by SwiftySwift; 10-17-2010 at 11:21 AM..

10-17-2010, 11:29 AM	#5
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 id call smith and wesson and clear it up

10-17-2010, 11:49 AM	#6
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 When I called, it said I needed an extension number... Haha.

10-17-2010, 12:34 PM	#7
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 Look at the number on the bottom of the barrel, next to the frame. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

10-17-2010, 12:54 PM	#8
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7

10-17-2010, 01:26 PM	#9
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 when i've called smith i always use this number and push through some options until i get to talk to a person 1-800-331-0852

10-17-2010, 07:17 PM	#10
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 (Note that the OP's two big pics are reversed.) That gun is the Model 1905, Fourth Change, which is obvious from the presence of the rebound slide pin, the screw in front of the trigger guard, and the small end ejector rod. I think the OP is somehow misreading the serial number; could it be 465xxx (i.e., six digits)? 465xxx would date to the mid-1920's and those grips would be consistent with that period. Jim Last edited by Jim K; 10-17-2010 at 07:20 PM..

10-17-2010, 07:44 PM	#11
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 Oh ye of little faith, haha. So, as mentioned above, there are only 5 digits in the SN. I had a link to two different pictures, so here is a third. The numbers, though not clearly legible, are definitely countable, proving there really are only 5. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, just trying to find out what kinda gun this is and about how much it's worth, haha. Attached Images

10-17-2010, 10:58 PM	#12
fleetwood1976 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Southern Indiana Contributor Posts: 1,333	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 I have a standard catalog of smith and wesson 3rd ed. that says it estimates square butts at around 58,000. I would say it could be a very early square but version. I would definetly give $300 for it.

10-17-2010, 11:01 PM	#13
fleetwood1976 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Southern Indiana Contributor Posts: 1,333	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 like jim says it don't add up. maybe it was rebarreled and a new crane, extractor, Etc?

10-17-2010, 11:30 PM	#14
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 Fleetwood, then wouldn't the number on the swingarm, and inside of the swingarm (built onto the frame) be different? And, Jim, where is the rebound slide pin?

10-18-2010, 01:12 PM	#15
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 The rebound slide was not used in the first M&P models; a rebound lever was used instead. The rebound slide is a rectangular steel "box" that moves back and forth to push the hammer back when the trigger is released. The trigger spring is inside the rebound slide. The spring butts against a pin in the frame. In modern guns the end of the pin is polished down and usually can't be seen, but at that time they didn't bother and the round end of the pin can be seen just above and to the front of the top of the grip. The problem is that the change to the rebound slide took place with the .38 Hand Ejector, Model 1905, First Change. In fact, that WAS the "First Change." The serial numbers for the First change start at 73,251. So no S&W revoolver earlier than that could possibly have that pin in that piace. (No, they didn't - couldn't - retrofit earlier guns.) Further, that gun has the screw in front that retains the new type cylinder stop; that change took place with the original 1905 model, at serial number 62,450. There is no way an S&W M&P earlier than that would have that screw. The other change noted is the small ejector rod head. That, and the accompanying barrel change, were made with the Model 1905 Fourth Change, at # 241704, about 1915, While the new ejector rod would fit in the old cylinder, the barrel difference rules out an ejector rod replacement. So, things just plain don't add up. That serial number is just not consistent with the rest of the gun. I have no explanation except one possibility. That is that the original gun with serial number 465xx was damaged and sent to the factory for repair. Repair was impossible, so the factory replaced the whole gun with a then-new model and numbered it the same as the original gun to avoid any problems if the gun was registered. That was done by both S&W and Colt and is the only thing that makes sense. Jim

10-18-2010, 07:48 PM	#17
grampawmike V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 194	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 FWIW, blow the second pic from Photobucket (#0908) up to anywhere between 150%/400% and take a look at the third digit and the sixth(?) digit. Both appear to be washed out, however there does appear that there was a number in the sixth position at one time. Just a shallow dimple now. JMHO Mike __________________ At my age I find that I can live without sex.....but not without my glasses. One good thing about growing old is that no one expects you to do anything quickly anymore Last edited by grampawmike; 10-18-2010 at 07:56 PM..

10-18-2010, 09:51 PM	#18
SwiftySwift Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 It was just a pic on my camera phone... In person, the numbers are very clean cut. Jim, if it was how you said, would they be able to tell me what model they replaced the original 46598 with? Or what had happened to it?

10-18-2010, 10:06 PM	#19
fleetwood1976 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Southern Indiana Contributor Posts: 1,333	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 serial number should have a * after it if it was repaired at the factory.

10-19-2010, 05:50 PM	#20
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Smith and Wesson .38 Not always on the asterisk. At different times, they used other markings and not always after the serial number. There really would have been no need; they destroyed the old frame so there was still only one gun of that number. If my guess is correct, I doubt there is a lot of value added; it would be something of an oddity, but IMHO nothing that would add up to big bucks. Well, if the serial number was transferred from an older gun, the new gun is a Model 1905, Fourth Change (1915-1942). If Grampawmike is correct and there is or was a sixth digit (i.e., 465xxx), the gun dates from sometime in the 1920's. Jim