Funny Conversation at the 1500 today..."Glockies" Please Note!

[polishshooter]

I was jawing with an "A" Class shooterat a booth from an IPSC club north of Indy, reminiscing about the rules when I shot it in the 80s and the changes now... MANY, not all that good if I want to get back into it...


...but he told me about the lowered floor limits for 'Major" and Minor" callibers, and I asked him why they lowered it from 175000 to 165000 and he said to make the supers safer, and most A class are now shooting supers...

Right when one of his buddies that kept coming up, and going and then coming back with something else he had bought, the buddy heard me telling the guy about a numbnuts pushing the old limit with a super when that was just the beginning of the trend and blowing his 1911 once while a bunch of us were practicing the day before a match, his buddy goes "That's like the time I blew up my .40..."to the A shooter...

I asked him, pretty quickly, "Was it a Glock?"











And the answer was, with a surprised look," Yes it was, how did you know?"

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

I asked him, pretty quickly, "Was it a Glock?"

SACRILEDGE!!

Eleventh Commandment: Who so ever taketh the name of Glock in vain shall suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, and shall dwell in the house of the infernal Llama forever!

[wolfgang2000]

To all you Glock haters answer a question please. If Glocks are so bad why are they copied so much?

[polishshooter]

Hey, does anybody know why I can't get anything when I try to hit www.1911sgoboom.com?

How about www.sigsgoboom.com? Hmmmmm....


ADMIT it guys, unless MOST "stupid handloaders" also own Glocks, (which in itself just may not be out of the question, I guess... ) which I doubt, there HAS to be a "design flaw..."








(GOD I missed raising the Glockies' BP... ALMOST as much fun as teasing the Germanophiles who love Mausers and Tigers... )

[user_error]

Originally Posted by wolfgang2000

To all you Glock haters answer a question please. If Glocks are so bad why are they copied so much?

Cos no one will pay that much for a glock.

*snicker*
naw, glocks are alright.

[polishshooter]

User-

I don't really have anything personally AGAINST Glocks either, even if I WOULDN'T ever own one...

...or ANYTHING in "10mm short"

But isn't it amazing how DEFENSIVE people get when something "new" very quickly rises to a pseudo "religion?"

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

But isn't it amazing how DEFENSIVE people get when something "new" very quickly rises to a pseudo "religion?"

Well Polish, you always have the option of going back to a Colt S/A as your carry piece, or perhaps an old flintlock or cap-and-ball. Glocks, qua Glocks, aren't really the issue, I think. It's the idea of innovation and improved functional design. It is worthy to note that Glock was the first to use polymers successfully for commercally produced pistols, and now every major gun maker produces them. Glock also commercially introduced the striker-fired action design. I would argue also that if Glocks produce a cult, the 1911s created an even larger, more fervent one.

[polishshooter]

Uh, PS? I agree that referring to the Glockies as a "cult" is apt...

And I FULLY support polymers! As a GRIP on my handgun or knife, not the FRAME or BLADE!

But in MY book a One hundred year old design (OK, so it TOOK 6 years to make it "perfect..." ) that develops a "devoted group of adherents" AFTER MILLIONS serving in two world wars, and countless firefights in ALL kinds of conditions, and has had MILLIONS of RELOADS fired down barrels throated by everyone from Steve Nastoff to ME, and STILL has not had to coin a "special term" for "catastrophic failure," is NOT a "cult..." PLUS any 1911 "fanatic" will CHEERFULLY tell you of the aspects of the design they don't like, or THEY think is a "design flaw..." I have NEVER heard a true "Glockie" say ANYTHING bad about one, and who also will attack anyone who DOES with more vehemence than a Liberal attacking W!


Glocks are good.
Glocks are great.
Jus' don't shoot reloads
like the manuals state.



I copied/pasted that RIGHT from a "PRO-GLOCK" website! Which had LINKS to 'Kabooms!"

Come on! ANY design of a HANDGUN that CANNOT take handloads as per factory direction is a FAILURE, or at LEAST has to have MORE development! You CANNOT be a truly good handgunner WITHOUT THOUSANDS of rounds downrange. and you CANNOT afford to be a good handgunner IF YOU ONLY SHOOT FACTORY!


My POINT is that years ago, yeah, we had "catastrophic failures" in IPSC...ask Rob leatham or SCORES of others WHY they wear BEARDS! But it was RARE, and we ALWAYS new why...it WASN'T handloading per se, it was A class shooters or B class boobs "pushing" the .38 super round WAY past the limits in any manual to gain an advantage in the sprort of IPSC! WE didn't blame the design, we blamed the damm fool, and he KNEW it as well. But even with the "super nuts", catastrophic failures were SO rare, IF you actually SAW one, it USED to be a an "event." I saw ONE. I personally KNEW only that one guy who had his blow. ALL the others were stories like mine, anecdotal.

And I consider myself neither a "handloader" or a "pistolsmith..." but in my IPSC days put OVER 50000 rounds IN ONE YEAR, maybe 100000 total over 5 years, 99+% of them MY handloads, through my 1911 clone, that I built from parts, through 3 DIFFERENT barrels that I "throated" myself. Can ANY Glockie say that? And I was NOT unique, heck, MOST "A class" put twice that many rounds as I did down their barrels in ONE YEAR.


NOW, "Kabooms" are SO common, that in an incidental contact at a gunshow leads to an "innocent" "That's like what happened to MY .40????" And what I DIDN'T post yesterday was the rejoinder from the A class..."Some people shouldn't handload!"

I'm sorry, Glockies and Glock,Inc.,have their head in the sand... now I'm NOT saying it MAY not have so many OTHER advantages in a fight that make taking the chance it's going to seriously injure you a "calculated risk..." If that be it, go forth with my blessing....and I hope you can afford to shoot it enough...



Now as to the SA Army allusion...THAT is EXACTLY my opposition to the .40S&W...


THe .40 is ballistically IDENTICAL to the old .38-40 Blackpowder SAA round! The .38 was misnamed, it was actually .40 cal. And it was NOT considered an optimum defense round, IN THE 19th CENTURY! NOBODY who was seriously into defensive handgun use picked a .38 Colt SAA IF a .44-40 or a .45LC was available!


JMHO...

[LurpyGeek]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Eleventh Commandment: Who so ever taketh the name of Glock in vain shall suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, and shall dwell in the house of the infernal Llama forever!

Are those slings and arrows being used because the glock doesn't?

Just kidding. I don't really have any experience with them, I just had to say that.

[rangerruck]

now wait just a minute pistolenschutze, i had a llama minimax in 45, put night sites on it , soaked the entire gun in Teflon lube, put a 4 lb trigger job on itput a 45 buffer pad on it smoother out the edges. got it last year. so it was the last model they made that was decent. it shot dead on at 15 yds.

[polishshooter]

Well, we know LURPY is going to fit in nicely here, don't we? THAT was a good one...and to tell you the truth, I really don't have anything against Glocks either, just like to get the goat of the "Glockies"....even though I don't think I'd ever buy one...if I WAS to get another .45, a DAO Sig looks pretty nice!


You know if somebody was to GIVE me one (in .45 of course...) I could ring it out and maybe change my mind! IF I didn't lose any more fingers that is!

[JohnK3]

PS, before you start spouting the "Glock invented everything good" claptrap, a bit of history:

The first commercially produced polymer framed pistosl were developed by Heckler & Koch in the VP70, which also had a striker action over 15 years before the Glock.

You can't even claim "commercially successful" as the criteria, because the VP70 was manufactured from 1970 through 1989, a 19 year run. Sure, it wasn't the hit that the Glock was, but it was successful.

This is not to say Glock's not a good choice. FOR YOU. Just don't try to push it on me and definitely don't claim that Glock is superior to a 1911. It ain't. It's different. Mr. Glock has ONE design that turned out well. John Moses Browning has TONS of designs that are still being manufactured NEW today. Will Mr. Glock's reputation be the same 100 years down the road? Our children or our grandchildren will find out.

[Pistolenschutze]

Polish, I do think your gonna get ulcers, or at least apoplexy, if you keep up this failure to recognize progress . At your age, such obstinacy can place undue strain on the ol' bod. Now, ol' Doc Pistolenschutze's prescription is as follows:

1. Buy 1 litre good whiskey. Drink half. If you still feel the need to own oblescent equipment, drink the other half.

2. Buy a fine Glock pistol; in your case, perhaps a G21 would be best . Spend some quality time with this new, lovely creature. Feel her curves, fondle her inner most secret places, ponder her rugged but utilitarian and yet faultless design.

3. Memorize new rhyme:

Consider the perfection of the Glock,
It comes in a nice light frame,
No toggles to press,
No safeties that hitch,
Just squeeze the little trigger on that son of a . . .

OK, OK, enough of that, but I just couldn't resist, Polish. Ranks right up there with the great poets, don't you think? The muse of poetry must have overtaken me unbeknownst.

All kidding aside, I must question seriously the contention that handloads are especially dangerous with Glocks, Polish. They are no more dangerous with Glocks than with any other make of handgun. ALL manufactuers recommend against handloads and most say they will void the warrenty if handloads are used. Polish, I have put at least 4,000 rounds of handloaded ammo through my Glock 33 and Glock 30 just in the last year without a single mishap of any kind, not so much as a misfire or jam. Granted, I know how to handload and I certainly know enough not to play with idiotic max-pressure loads in ANY handgun, or use lead bullets that gunk up the barrel. My handgun target loads are all with TMJ or FMJ ammo for any handgun I load for, including the two .45 1911 Colts I own. Fingers lost to Glocks firing handloads belonged, I would argue, largely to amateur handloaders who simply couldn't resist the temptation to up the powder charge past all reason and common sense.

Glocks are not perfect; no design is, but I do believe they are an excellent and very reliable design and far easier to carry and use than any steel S/A or double/single auto available. As for the .45 Colt 1911, you won't hear any complaints from me on its reliability or its effectiveness. Hell, I carried one as my constant companion for a year in VN, and yes, had occasion to use it, and not just for practice. It's a fine weapon in it place, and I think the military was stupid to trade it in for that useless Beretta POS they issued to the troops in the '80s. But the 1911 was and is a military and police weapon, precisely as J. M. Browning intended it to be. For range or competition shooting, sure, it works beautifully, but it is not, I think, a good concealed carry arm. It's much too heavy, far too bulky, and too damn complicated in operation without more training than most civilians ever get, and then constant practice to maintain that competence. In the right hands, it's fine, but "the right hands" doesn't include 90% of the shooting public.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by JohnK3

This is not to say Glock's not a good choice. FOR YOU. Just don't try to push it on me and definitely don't claim that Glock is superior to a 1911. It ain't. It's different. Mr. Glock has ONE design that turned out well. John Moses Browning has TONS of designs that are still being manufactured NEW today. Will Mr. Glock's reputation be the same 100 years down the road? Our children or our grandchildren will find out.

No real argument there, John. I don't think any weapon design is necessarily superior to any other. It depends mostly on the circumstances of use and also on the person using it. As I said, I DON'T think the 1911 is a good carry pistol, at least not for me and for the reasons I stated above, though I can shoot military "Expert" with one. As for Browning, he was the FOREMOST weapons genius ever to have lived. No question about that.

PS: Most of that above was just to needle Polish anyway.

[inplanotx]

Originally Posted by wolfgang2000

To all you Glock haters answer a question please. If Glocks are so bad why are they copied so much?

If they are copied so much, why haven't they been around for 95 years, used by the US military or seen 75 years service in the military? Now, want to count copies? Start counting the copies of the 1911 designed by JMB. Far more of them, than Glochs!

[inplanotx]

Polish, I have put at least 4,000 rounds of handloaded ammo through my Glock 33 and Glock 30 just in the last year without a single mishap of any kind, not so much as a misfire or jam.

PS, when your poor little Gloch hits the 60K to 70K rounds put through it as my 1911's have, then come back and compare. When I do my part, my 1911's do theirs. Most problems with the 1911 are operator headspace problems and not the fault of the gun or design.

I bet I know one thing you little Gloch can't do that my 1911's can and that is feed empty cases every time. Try your poor little Gloch and tell me how it reacts to empty cases. Just load up a mag and make every other round an empty case. I'll be your Gloch can't do that! My 1911's can and do.

[polishshooter]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

or use lead bullets that gunk up the barrel.

HEy PS? Could YOU afford to put 50000 rounds of JACKETED bullets through it in 12 months? I couldn't.....so ALL the rounds down the barrrel(s) of my 1911 except MAYBE less than 5% were 200grSWC lead H&G#68s...which incidentally at IPSC major makes a HELLUVA defense load too, BESIDES cutting those nice round holes...

And yeah, to make them feed like prune juice through a nursing home, we ALL throated our barrels...most of us OURSELVES.

Granted, ONE Colt Series 70 barrel got replaced when the rounds started to keyhole from the leading (I was EXTRA cheap and used bullets with DRY lube ) but after buying a Lewis Lead remover, THAT 2nd barrel lasted just fine until I converted it to a 6" pin gun with a custom Bar-sto barrel and weight...which incidentally, I ALSO throated....but now it's back to 5" FOR CARRY, with that same Series 70 Colt I put MOST of the rounds through...

(And since I can't figger out how to put a SECOND quote inot one post, let's just say....


TO BE CONTINUED

[polishshooter]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Fingers lost to Glocks firing handloads belonged, I would argue, largely to amateur handloaders who simply couldn't resist the temptation to up the powder charge past all reason and common sense.

I don't BUY this at ALL, UNLESS you are going to convince me that MOST amateur handloaders (ergo, amateur HANDGUNNERS as well, since you HAVE to handload or be subsidized to shoot enough to be an EXPERIENCED handgunner) own GLOCKS, and not OTHER makes (Ergo again, you SHOULD find the same relative PERCENTAGE of Star, Astra, Colt, S&W, Sig, Beretta, etc, etc, etc. owners with "Fingers lost" to THEM as you see with "Fingers lost to Glocks firing handloads." YOU DON'T. HHHmmmm....


Second, MANY of the testimonials and affidavits you can see right on the 'net for Kabooms STATE factory ammo was used...(And does ANYBODY know where I can find such testimonials to ANY other handgun "blowing up" on the net? Just curious... )


And when "cornered" on the "handload" MYTH, do the GLOCKIES, say HHmmm...maybe I better reTHINK this a little? HELL NO, then it becomes "amateur gunsmiths who shouldn't be ALLOWED near a dremel because so much of the case head is unsupported..." AS IF they just came down from the mountain in Austria with this engraved by GOD on a TABLET! DO you think this is somehow NEW information????? THIS WAS DISCUSSED BY JMB RIGHT AFTER HIS 1905 design hit the market, and he got questioned by other "experts" THEN! (SO, does that mean most "Bubbas" own Glocks rather than any OTHER handgun, if you follow the same logic about relative percentages...ERGO sum!) (I don't know if "ergo sum" is appropriate, but I'm on a roll... )

And I read it in many manuals and magazines on pistolsmithing, available on ANY newstand, BEFORE I picked up the dremel the first time...(Actually it was an Oster pet groomer I got at a yard sale, I couldn't afford a REAL dremel then either )


methinks, pistolenshutzen, that thou has succumbed once AGAIN to your self-induced Germanophillic (in this case, Austrophillic?) inability to criticize ANYTHING Germanic, and to ascribe to it MYTHICAL qualities based on its POTENTIAL due to it's "cutting edge technology" (i.e.' 'German Engineering...AAAaarrghh!!!! ,) while ignoring GLARING deficiencies inherent in an UNDERDEVELOPED, and thus FAULTY design "rushed" into production!



Kinda like the TIGER II????? Ergo ERGO summa cum laude!


Yo' hohna', Ah res' mah cayse...

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by inplanotx

PS, when your poor little Gloch hits the 60K to 70K rounds put through it as my 1911's have, then come back and compare. When I do my part, my 1911's do theirs. Most problems with the 1911 are operator headspace problems and not the fault of the gun or design.

I bet I know one thing you little Gloch can't do that my 1911's can and that is feed empty cases every time. Try your poor little Gloch and tell me how it reacts to empty cases. Just load up a mag and make every other round an empty case. I'll be your Gloch can't do that! My 1911's can and do.

Well, let's see, I should hit the 35,000 mark this year with the G30. So far, so good, as the man said at the 34th who fell off the 50 story building. We'll see, Inplano. You may be right, I don't know; I've not hit the 60,000 mark with a Glock yet, though I certainly have with my Gold Cup. It's still shooting just fine (and so far, so are the Glocks).

Now, as to the the second question, I can only answer with another question: Why the hell would I want to feed empty cases through any pistol? Last time I checked, those don't shoot too well.

[polishshooter]

Hey Inplanatox, finish this thought...


'IF it will feed empty cases, then it will feed....."


(Mine feeds empties too... )

[JohnK3]

From what I've read about kB! in Glocks, it appears to be a faulty design/manufacturing decision.

Apparently, some early Glocks were manufactured with the chamber mouth just a little bit larger than spec. This was, supposedly, to increase reliability in feeding. Instead, what it did was increase the probability that any given round, *even factory ammo* would lack sufficient support at the head and experience a failure at that point.

1911s have an unsupported head in many cases, as well. However, the .45 ACP was designed with that feature in the weapon in mind. Therefore, the web at that point is stronger and pressures are kept to reasonable levels so the unsupported head won't fail. This is not the case with the 9mm or the .40S&W, as they were designed with fully-supported heads in mind. When Glock ignored this factor, they subsequently manufactured a number of weapons that were unsafe. They have since corrected the problem and blamed reloaded ammunition on their failure to properly design their weapon.

[Pistolenschutze]

Polish, have you considered diazapam for your condition? I under it works quite well to calm the nerves and sooth the excitable soul. You could also resort to schnapps, but that's a German drink! Better stay with Bourbon.

Polish, sometimes you seem to lapse into medieval Polish when you get excited. I can usually puzzle out medieval German, but Polish is more difficult. Bear with me . . .

Originally Posted by polishshooter

methinks, pistolenshutzen, that thou has succumbed once AGAIN to your self-induced Germanophillic (in this case, Austrophillic?) inability to criticize ANYTHING Germanic, and to ascribe to it MYTHICAL qualities based on its POTENTIAL due to it's "cutting edge technology" (i.e.' 'German Engineering...AAAaarrghh!!!! ,) while ignoring GLARING deficiencies inherent in an UNDERDEVELOPED, and thus FAULTY design "rushed" into production!

And could it be, O fair and just Polish Person, that thou has succumbed to Germanophobia? There is nothing "mystic" about anything the Germans or Austrians build, nor have I ever suggested there was. They have been and are, however, excellent engineers and produce some fine products, among them pistols. As I said in an earlier post, Glocks are not perfect, no pistol design is. Glock builds a reliable, easily operated handgun in a variety of useful calibers. They are light, accurate, ergonomiclly designed, and I, at least, can hit what I shoot at with them. They are, in a word, tools, just as any firearm. I'm not quite certain what you mean with that bit about amateur gunsmiths. I take it you mean unknowledgable idiots sometimes modifiy guns with disasterous results. If that is indeed what you meant, I completely concur, but then, a cure for idiocy has not yet been invented, nor is it likely to be in the near future. I consider such incidents a clensing of the gene pool.

I have NEVER said, nor implied, that the .45 1911 Colt and clones is a bad design or a bad handgun. I have said, and do sincerely believe, it is a poor choice for concealed carry, because of its weight, its complexity, and because it tends to be cumbersome, largely because it is a single action design. As a matter of fact, the first handgun I ever purchased for myself was a 1911 Colt. Today, I own two of them: a Colt Commander and a Gold Cup. I like them, I shoot them, I believe they are fine and reliable weapons. What I DON'T think is that they are the only good handgun design anyone ever dreamed up, nor do I think John Moses Browning was the only brilliant designer of firearms. He was brilliant, no doubt about that, but there have been, and will continue to be, other brillant designers. Are you suggesting that all pistol design should have ceased when Browning patented his 1911? If so, I think that idea is absurd.

I shan't bother to look up statistics on blowups due to handloads with other brands of firearm, though I feel certain such incidents HAVE occurred, and will continue to occur, for any number of reasons, among them, overloads and non-standard modifications to firearms themselves. One has a far, far better chance of winning the lottery than having such a thing happen with a Glock or any other quality firearm, assuming one does not do something stupid. An yes, I do use jacketed rounds for all my handloads, never leads. I detest barrel leading, and detest even more cleaning that crap out of a good pistol or revolver barrel. Yeah, I know, leads can make an effective round, but so do jacketed hollow points, so why use leads? I never use handloads for "serious social interactions" anyway.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by JohnK3

When Glock ignored this factor, they subsequently manufactured a number of weapons that were unsafe. They have since corrected the problem and blamed reloaded ammunition on their failure to properly design their weapon.

That is the story I've heard also, John. It may well be true that Glock made some hasty design and marketing decisions in the beginning. Whatever the case, that issue is no longer pertinent. As you point out, the problem was corrected. Very few machines are perfected until they have seen service in the hands of users. Even Browning 1911 started out as a "1906" and was later modified, with corrections, as the 1911. Why do you think computer programs go through massive testing before issuance, but still go through an additional round of consumer testing (Beta tests) to correct all the glitches that still exist?

[polishshooter]

Yeah, I ADMIT to a certain amount of "Germanophobia..." but not crippling by any means...

And A good scotch also works well along with the bourbon...on successive days of course! Never really liked the SCHNAPPS though...(uh oh, there it is AGAIN)


Actually, to show I'm NO homey... There ARE a few (very few)things I'm NOT entirely happy with with the 1911, and firmly believe my NEXT .45 will be a Sig DAO...JMB WAS a genius, but NOBODY, not even Herr Glockmeister, is PERFECT...

But my dislike for the .40 is something else, maybe because MOST GLocks I see are .40...adds to the distaste! MAYBE a full-house 10mm, and I'd take a double stack, but then that NEVER worked out, did it? Even after all that promise...NOBODY can argue that the .45ACP is not hands down the BEST combat pistol round ever made, the standard by which ALL auto rounds will always be measured.

And I DO think the double stack thing IS overrated in a pistol...most shootouts with pistols are STILL over in 2-3 shots! 15 shots is a "feel good," but NO single stacker that PRACTICES reloading is REALLY giving anything away....and to keep the .45???? The ONLY way, unless you have monster hands and can handle a double stack Para .45!


And this is ANOTHER area that I show difference with a Glockie... The only thing TRULY annoying with Glockies is that they think there is NOTHING wrong with a Glock!


For starters, they are UGLY. IMO... THEN comes the "plastic" part... THEN I heard about the "not-uncommon to a Glock" blow-ups...COULD it be quality control, with a reluctance by the factory to face product liability suits???? JUST a smidgin of food for thought...you have to admit, there is just TOO much evidence of them, as compared to virtually NONE for ANY other design!





But I will have you know, I STAUNCHLY defended them during the "Plastic Pistols undetectable by airport screening" bullcrap!!!





And I DID put 350,000 miles on an 82 Rabbitt, and an 85 and 86 Golf from 82 until 91....and liked 'em, so it ISN'T fatal...



But did you like the Ergo Sum part though???

[inplanotx]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Hey Inplanatox, finish this thought...


'IF it will feed empty cases, then it will feed....."


(Mine feeds empties too... )

Hey PS, to help Polish out here, the end of the sentence will read "any type bullet known to man in that caliber."