Colt Pocket Positive

[Steely]

Hey all,
A friend just handed me a Colt Pocket Positive in "good" condition,
has the 1905 patent date on the barrel,
serial number is 137XXX
stamped on the barrel is .32 Police CTG

I read in an earlier post that .32 S&W Long will work best in this gun,
however my buddy already tried that round and every casing was split down the side when fired. What is the issue here? is there something wrong with the cylinder or were they using the wrong ammo?
also can anyone tell me the approx. age and value?
any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Steely

[Jim K]

That should be the .32 Pocket Positive, First Issue, made from 1905 to 1927. Your number dates to 1928, though, so either my sources are incorrect or (more likely), Colt was simply using up a bunch of older barrels with the old patent date.

Those guns were made in .32 Colt, .32 S&W Long and .32 Colt New Police. The two latter cartridges are, for all practical purposes, identical. I can't quite understand the split cases; the .32 S&W Long won't fit in a .32 Colt chamber, and should work OK in the other. Is the ammo modern, or is it old rounds that were found with the gun. What is the headstamp?

The gun is basically the same as the older .32 New Pocket except for having Colt's "positive" hammer block safety, hence the name change. Those little guns were very popular with both civilians and plain clothes police in a day when .32 was considered adequate for doing in bad guys.

Value depends on condition; like new, they bring upwards of $700; in average shape, $250 or so, with a premium for nice nickel and a deduction for cracked or broken grips, a common situation.

Jim

[Gabob]

I have fired .32 S&W Longs in a couple of Pocket Positives with no problems

[Jim K]

So have I, which is why I wonder what the problem is.

Jim

[Terry_P]

Were the rounds factory or reoads?

[Steely]

I just got a hold of the box of ammo they were using,
Federal Classics
not new, but doesn't seem excessively old,
Factory Loads, headstamp shows FC 32 S&W Long
98 grain 32 S&W Long Lead Round Nose
box and brass look brand new but there is a small
amount of corrosion around the lead nose
price tag on the box says $7.65

[Alpo]

I wonder if you are misreading the number on the barrel, and it actually says "38 Police"? Or, since Jim says the SN doesn't agree with the barrel, maybe someone (for whatever reason) has put a 32 barrel on a 38 gun.

I'd put a caliper on the chambers, if it was me.

[Steely]

The barrel definitely says .32 not .38
the 32 S&W Long rounds seemed to fit perfectly in the chambers
(even though they split from top to bottom when fired)

I will put a caliper on the chamber as soon as I can and get back to you all
Thanks again
Steely

[Alpo]

Mine is a Smith, not a Colt, but the chambers I just measured were .3405" in diameter.

[Steely]

I hit the gun with a Franklin Arsenal Caliper

The muzzle of the barrel measured 0.312
The forward end of the cylinder (Bullet end) measured 0.319
and the rear end of the cylinder (headstamp end) measured 0.345

[Jim K]

Certainly sounds like .32 S&W Long.

Jim

[Alpo]

I agree. Only thing I can think of is, at 7.65 for the box of ammo, it is at least 20 years old. Maybe it was stored badly - where something could have gotten to the brass and weakened it.??

Try some new ammo (which will run between 30 and 35 dollars a box) and see if it still does it.

[jim.i]

Saw this thread and have a question: I have just gotten my hands on a Colt Pocket Positive, 32 cal with 3 1/2" barrel, and shoots .32 longs.

Description: Stamped on top of barrel - "COLTS PT.F.A.MFG.CO.HARTFORD.CT.USA PAT'D AUG 5, 1884 JUNE 5,1900 JULY 4, 1905"

Colt emblem on left side of frame below hammer. Looks like a triangle with "VP" inside stamped on left side of frame above front of trigger guard.

SN stamped on cylinder arm and also on frame. There is also a "5" stamped on the frame below the SN.

"4" stamped on frame under left grip.

Any ideas on manufacture date and possible value? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[popgun]

sounds like a Police Positive Special 32-20 that has a 32 police barrel put on.

[Jim K]

deleted

[Jim K]

Popgun, what gun are you talking about? The Pocket Positive is a tiny gun; .32-20 won't even fit in the cylinder and would stick out the front if it did. The ones marked ".32 POLICE CTG." are chambered for the .32 S&W Long (aka .32 Colt New Police).

Pocket Positive 137xxx was made in 1928; by that time, the .32 Colt had long since gone by the wayside and the guns were being made only for .32 Colt New Police/.32 S&W Long.

Jim.i,

The serial number on your gun is on the frame under he crane. If you can provide it, someone can tell you when the gun was made. Valuation will depend on seeing good qualilty pictures of both sides.

Jim

[popgun]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Popgun, what gun are you talking about? The Pocket Positive is a tiny gun; .32-20 won't even fit in the cylinder and would stick out the front if it did. The ones marked ".32 POLICE CTG." are chambered for the .32 S&W Long (aka .32 Colt New Police).

Pocket Positive 137xxx was made in 1928; by that time, the .32 Colt had long since gone by the wayside and the guns were being made only for .32 Colt New Police/.32 S&W Long.

Jim.i,

The serial number on your gun is on the frame under he crane. If you can provide it, someone can tell you when the gun was made. Valuation will depend on seeing good qualilty pictures of both sides.

Jim

Jim take a pill. I said Police Positive Special. I have one in 32-20. Please read before you call me out in your post.

[popgun]

just a side note the PPS and the PP were both made at the same time and the only name and cartg. were marked on the barrel so it is possible to put a PP barrel marked with the wrong info on a PPS.

[Lanrezac]

Originally Posted by popgun

just a side note the PPS and the PP were both made at the same time and the only name and cartg. were marked on the barrel so it is possible to put a PP barrel marked with the wrong info on a PPS.

If I understand what you mean by PPS (Police Positive Special?) and PP (Pocket Postive or Police Positive?), then I think you might be wrong.

The Police Positive (the original 32 version) and the slightly larger Police Positive 38 (as in 38 S&W) were made at the same time; and just to make things more confusing, it seems to have been possible to get a 38 framed gun chambered in 32. Each of these frame sizes were made in a short barrel/small grip version. The 32 frame with a short barrel and small grip was called the Pocket Positive; the equivalent model on the 38 S&W frame was the Banker's Special. Therefore, if this gun is marked Pocket Positive, it should be the original 32 frame.

When production of the Police Positive Special began, I think in 1928, production of both the original 32 frame Police Positive and the Police Positive 38 (38 S&W frame) stopped. This is where you might be wrong. I do not think the Police Positive Special and the Police Postive were ever made at the same time, and it seems unlikely to me that a 32 frame Police Positive barrel would fit a Police Positive Special frame.

Just to continue the saga: the small grip/short barrel version of the Police Positive Special was called the Detective Special, with 2 exceptions: if it had an alloy frame and was in 38 Special, it was a Cobra, and if it had an alloy frame and was a 32, it was a Courier.

The Police Positive Special was offered in .32-20, but I don't know about the Detective Special. Both were made in 32 S&W Long.

Final note: Just as Colt called 32 S&W Long "32 Colt New Police", it called 38 S&W "38 Colt New Police". In both cases, I think this was to avoid putting S&W's name on it's revolvers. I forget - did they call 38 Special "38 Colt Special"?

Sorry to be so pedantic, but it took me a long time to get all this straight in my head, and I would like to see if I have got it right. I still don't know what calibers all the various small-frame target models were made in, and what they were called!

Just my $.02.

[popgun]

Lanrezac: regardles of what you say and it may be true, But the Police Positive Special (PPS) was made in 32 new police, 32-20 WCF, and 38 special. So it is possible a barrel marked 32 new police could be match up with a cylinder in 32-20 on a PPS frame. It would not matter wich was alltered the brarrel or the cylinder, as both would result in split cases when firing 32 S&W cartg.

Oh and the PPS was introduced in 1907

[Jim K]

Popgun, I was not "calling you out", on anything except changing guns in midstream. The original question and the subsequent replies were about the Pocket Positive, not the Police Positive Special, which is a much larger gun. The PPS was indeed made in .32-20 and also in .32 New Police. It was also made in several .38 calibers, including the uncommon .38-44 S&W if Wilson is correct. But it is a larger gun than the Pocket Positive and has a cylinder longer than that of the Police Positive.

The Pocket Positive frame is smaller than the S&W I frame and could not be made for the .32-20 or the .38 Special, even if the cylinder were reduced to five shots.

Jim

[popgun]

Ok I guess I was off-base

[Lanrezac]

Popgun, I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes, a .32-20 gun could have a 32 Long barrel on it, especially if it were re-barreled after it left the factory. It would be a PPS barrel though, not a PP one.

[Jim K]

Those guns are confusing, as the names all sound alike. A full comment on the various models would take the rest of the evening and likely still be wrong, so the best I can do is refer everyone to Wilson's book or one of the earler ones by Severn or Haven & Belden.

FWIW, I am attaching a picture of a Colt Pocket Positive alongside an S&W 642. Compare the cylinder diameter and length with that of the S&W. (The Colt looks like it has a bad finish, but that is oil. The gun in fact is like new.)

Jim

[popgun]

Nice post Jim