MAB Model D Ejection Problems

[northstar]

I recently acquired a French MAB Model D .32 ACP (Nazi marked). When fired, the extracor pulls the spent casing out. However, the casing does not flick out of the ejector port. I've spent some time on the net looking into this and it seems like this is the result of the firing pin being too short. Is this correct? Is it the firing pin that helps eject the spent casing or is my gun missing some sort of ejector? Can anybody help?

[StoneChimney]

There is no ejector on the MAB Modele D. Either you have a problem with the firing pin or the extractor is not holding the case tightly enough against the breechface.

[northstar]

I believe that the firing pin that came with the gun is worn. I have compared the portion of the firing pin that protrudes through the breech face with pictures of other MAB Model D firing pins on the net, and mine seems to be about half the length. I ordered a new firing pin from Numrich and they sent me a pin for a Browning 1910. The hollow body of the Browning pin is shorter than the MAB pin. I think it should still work. What's your thoughts?

[jim brady]

Northstar - this is sort of out of the blue, but is it possible that your pistol is chambered for the 7.65 (.32) French Long? This is just a VERY LONG SHOT, but seeing as how the French produced the 1935A MAS pistol line, I am wondering if it is possible that the ".32 Automatic" may actually be the slightly longer standard French military round.

The thing that leads me to this question is that many people have fired their M1935A pistols with .32ACP ammo. It often works, but it is a different round. If it were mine, I'd measure the chamber. Maybe it is .32ACP. Maybe not. To me that would answer the 'short firing pin' problem.

I have done a search on the MAB Model D, and it is specified as .32 ACP. It's kind of screwy to me that the French would have such different calibers issued at the same time. It would have been a nightmare for logistics. Of course you never know........

[Bill DeShivs]

The MAB was never made in .32 French Long.

[StoneChimney]

Northstar, the guns are of similar design. As long as the diameter of the firing pin is correct, it protrudes adequately from the breech face, and there is adequate engagement for the sear you should be OK. You may have to modify the length of the spring, maybe not.

[jim brady]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Bill. I'm still scratching my head as to the reasoning of the French in having two similiar but entirely diffent cartridges in their Supply System..... Looks like you are on track with the firing pin, Northstar.

[45Auto]

Interesting thread. I have also had this problem. What is the proper length for the MAB Model D firing pin?

[northstar]

I think the overall length of the firing pin is 1.21 inches.

[northstar]

Does anyone have a picture of the mechanism spring for the MAB Model D? I don't think my spring is bent properly (that or I'm not putting it back together correctly). Does it look the same as the spring on the youtube video "MAB Model C/D Complete Disassembly"? After the first shot, the trigger bar drops and doesn't come back up! Any help?

[Dullahan]

Originally Posted by jim brady

Northstar - this is sort of out of the blue, but is it possible that your pistol is chambered for the 7.65 (.32) French Long? This is just a VERY LONG SHOT, but seeing as how the French produced the 1935A MAS pistol line, I am wondering if it is possible that the ".32 Automatic" may actually be the slightly longer standard French military round.

The thing that leads me to this question is that many people have fired their M1935A pistols with .32ACP ammo. It often works, but it is a different round. If it were mine, I'd measure the chamber. Maybe it is .32ACP. Maybe not. To me that would answer the 'short firing pin' problem.

I have done a search on the MAB Model D, and it is specified as .32 ACP. It's kind of screwy to me that the French would have such different calibers issued at the same time. It would have been a nightmare for logistics. Of course you never know........

I am a new member to this site and being British and posting from Britain I hope I can make a useful contribution to members.
In the early 1950s I finished my army service and worked at the Manufacture Des Armes de Bayonne for a while making barrels on a lathe and a short time on assembley. There is a slight difference between the 7.65mm cartridege and the .32ACP in the "Shoulder" of the cartridge case. With wear the .32ACP (which was designed for the Colt) does not get a tight grip and sometimes the empty case only comes halfway out of the barrel.
There is an Exploded Diagram on the Wikipedia website of the MAB Model D although it does not give any dimensions.

[Lanrezac]

Thanks for posting! We generally don't get to talk to the people who made the guns we talk about. When you say the Shoulder of the 32ACP cartridge case, do you mean a point near the mouth, where the bullet is seated, or near the base, on the rim or just ahead of the extraction groove?

[Jim K]

The 7.65 Browning, which we in the US call the .32 ACP, was/is very common in Europe for both police and civilians. It is a semi-rimmed round because c. 1899 John Browning had not yet figured out that a cartridge could be supported (headspaced) on the case mouth. It is not powerful enough to reliably function in the recoil operated French Mle. 1935 pistols, plus its rim is large enough to cause feeding problems.

The 7.65mm Long, which the French called the Modele 1925, was a rimless military cartridge. In general, armies did not consider the 7.65 Browning powerful enough for general military use, though most used pistols of that caliber for officers' pistols and police-type use. Some people consider the 7.65mm Long inadequate for military use, but it is considerably more powerful than the 7.65mm Browning.

The 7.65mm Long was inspired by the ammunition for the American Pedersen Device, a semi-automatic bolt that replaced the normal bolt of the Model 1903 Springfield rifle. The cartridge cases are the same, but French ammunition is not interchangeable with that for the Pedersen device as the French round uses a longer bullet and the ammunition won't fit in the Pedersen device magazine.

The MAB D is a blowback pistol; it was made for the 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP), and not for the 7.65mm Long.

Jim

[Lanrezac]

I understood Dullahan to say that he was employed in making barrels for the MAB Model D, and that there was a difference between 7.65mm Browning and 32 ACP. My question was directed to pin down that difference. I did not think MAB ever made a pistol for 7.65mm Long. I thought they were all made by MAC, MAT, and maybe MAS.

[Jim K]

I hope Dullahan will respond, but I understood he was talking about the difference between the 7.65mm French Long, which he calls the 7.65, and the 7.65mm Browning, or .32 ACP. As he says, those are two different cartridges. One of the problems of using the .32 ACP in a French Mle. 1935 (either the A or S) is that the extractor won't always engage the larger rim of the .32 ACP.

Also, the 7.65 Long headspaces on the case mouth, while the .32 ACP normally headspaces on the rim. The 7.65 Long chamber will allow the .32 ACP rim to enter but the shorter round will go too far in. The firing pin will reach the primer, but the cartridge might not ride up under the extractor or the extractor might not fully engage the rim, creating either a feed problem or extraction failure.

Jim

[Dullahan]

Originally Posted by Lanrezac

Thanks for posting! We generally don't get to talk to the people who made the guns we talk about. When you say the Shoulder of the 32ACP cartridge case, do you mean a point near the mouth, where the bullet is seated, or near the base, on the rim or just ahead of the extraction groove?

When I worked at MAB in Bayonne I was just a Lathe operator and the only knowledge of small arms I gained during my National Service in the army.
I do own two MAB pistols (both deactivated according to British Law) A Model 'C' and a Model 'D'.
When I was at MAB I talked to the French Gunsmiths who were solving problems for the Army at the time, which were engaged in Indo Chine (you will know as Vietnam). They were having trouble with the use of .32ACP ammunition. They claimed that the base of the French and Belgium 7.65 mm cartridge had a slightly bigger diameter across the base than the .32ACP cartridge. When the U.S. took over production modifications were made to the Breech.
That is the best I can do I'm afraid. However I do know that French and Belgium 7.65mm cartridges have a bigger load than the .32ACP. What does ACP stand for I always believed it was "Automatic Colt Pistols" but I could be wrong.

[Jim K]

As you said, ACP stands for "Automatic Colt Pistol". At first (c. 1900), the initials were "CAP" for "Colt Automatic Pistol", but for some reason the name was changed.

Going by samples, the 7.65mm French Long (from a military box) mikes .333" at the rim and base, with a case length of .770". The .32 ACP mikes .354" at the rim, .332" at the base, with a case length of .673".

In my pistols, the .32 ACP will drop into the Model 1935 chambers far enough for the case to stop on the chamber shoulder, but the base will be too far in for the extractor to engage if it did not do so when the case was fed from the magazine.

You said "when the U.S. took over production". Was that production of the 7.65mm Long? I was unaware of any U.S. production of that cartridge and have never seen any. Or was the U.S. supplying .32 ACP (the wrong cartridge) to its French allies?

Jim

[Dullahan]

Originally Posted by Jim K

As you said, ACP stands for "Automatic Colt Pistol". At first (c. 1900), the initials were "CAP" for "Colt Automatic Pistol", but for some reason the name was changed.

Going by samples, the 7.65mm French Long (from a military box) mikes .333" at the rim and base, with a case length of .770". The .32 ACP mikes .354" at the rim, .332" at the base, with a case length of .673".

In my pistols, the .32 ACP will drop into the Model 1935 chambers far enough for the case to stop on the chamber shoulder, but the base will be too far in for the extractor to engage if it did not do so when the case was fed from the magazine.

You said "when the U.S. took over production". Was that production of the 7.65mm Long? I was unaware of any U.S. production of that cartridge and have never seen any. Or was the U.S. supplying .32 ACP (the wrong cartridge) to its French allies?

Jim

Morning Jim,
The MAB was produced for the U.S. By Western Arms and the modifications were made to accomodate the .32ACP ( although the guns produced at Herstal in Belgium for Fabrique National (Browning) still continued to produce the 7.65mm version because of a contract with the Army.
Just as a matter of interest. There is a ludicrous market in Pistols with "Nazi" markings here in Europe. The true pistols produced during the Nazi occupation do not bear any of these markings shown by some dealers. All that denotes the arms produced for the Police and Wermacht is the Number on the pistol and the words in the French "Calibre" to "Kaliber". It is a standing joke here in Europe.

[Jim K]

Sorry, but MAB Model D police surplus guns were sold by Western Arms, not made by them. The guns were made in France, by MAB. (Western was an importer, not a manufacturer.)

No modifications were made to accommodate the .32 ACP, since the MAB D was made in that caliber originally. It was never made in 7.65 Long because 1) its magazine is too short to take the French service ammunition and 2) it is a blowback pistol which could not handle the more powerful 7.65 Long service ammunition.

I fully understand the confusion between the two cartridges, but they are two different cartridges, and the guns that use them are different also.

The MAB D (and literally hundreds of other US and European gun types) were chambered for what we call the .32 ACP. AFAIK, the only production pistols chambered for the 7.65 Long were the French Modele 1935 A (SACM) and the Modele 1935 S. (There were a few others, but they never reached production status, like the experimental FN pistol submitted to the French for testing). The later MAB PA-15 and PA-18 were chambered for the 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger).

As to "Nazi" markings, guns accepted by the Wehrmacht were always marked by the WaffenAmt
inspector at the factory where the guns were made or at the depot where they were accepted. I know of no exceptions even very late in the war.

Jim

[Dullahan]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Sorry, but MAB Model D police surplus guns were sold by Western Arms, not made by them. The guns were made in France, by MAB. (Western was an importer, not a manufacturer.)

No modifications were made to accommodate the .32 ACP, since the MAB D was made in that caliber originally. It was never made in 7.65 Long because 1) its magazine is too short to take the French service ammunition and 2) it is a blowback pistol which could not handle the more powerful 7.65 Long service ammunition.

I fully understand the confusion between the two cartridges, but they are two different cartridges, and the guns that use them are different also.

The MAB D (and literally hundreds of other US and European gun types) were chambered for what we call the .32 ACP. AFAIK, the only production pistols chambered for the 7.65 Long were the French Modele 1935 A (SACM) and the Modele 1935 S. (There were a few others, but they never reached production status, like the experimental FN pistol submitted to the French for testing). The later MAB PA-15 and PA-18 were chambered for the 9mm Parabellum (9mm Luger).

As to "Nazi" markings, guns accepted by the Wehrmacht were always marked by the WaffenAmt
inspector at the factory where the guns were made or at the depot where they were accepted. I know of no exceptions even very late in the war.

Jim

Well Jim, I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. As i have said before I was just a lathe operator and the other information was solely gossip from the factory workers. I didn't start work there until 1954 and left in 1956 as my visa had run out and I was a foreigner. I lived in Jersey in the Channel Islands.

[Jim K]

I don't know about "superior knowledge", but I have a MAB D as well as a 1935A and a 1935S, and a few boxes of 7.65 Long (Mle 1925), plus, of course, .32 ACP, so I am able to do some comparison and checking. The discussion has been interesting. Best wishes from the States.

Jim

[Dullahan]

Originally Posted by Jim K

I don't know about "superior knowledge", but I have a MAB D as well as a 1935A and a 1935S, and a few boxes of 7.65 Long (Mle 1925), plus, of course, .32 ACP, so I am able to do some comparison and checking. The discussion has been interesting. Best wishes from the States.

Jim

Yes. It has been interesting, Thanks. If you get on to the Lee Enfield 303 and the Lee Enfield 'Enforcer' give me a call. They are my favourite rifles.
All the Best

[Dullahan]

Remember back in April we had a discussion about the MAB model D 7.65 mm not accepting the 7.65mm long cartridge.
Well I have just read a French article about the '7.65 mm Longue" and how it was designed to be fired by a pistol (the 1935A designed by a Swiss former Officer in the French Foriegn Legion ( Legion Des Etranger)
The whole thing pistol and ammunition was designed for the French Army .

[ShawnDow]

Northstar... did you still need a pic of the main spring in the MAB Model D? Ill attach a pic of mine.. keep in mind mine is a first series...

Now.. the main spring has a long finger and a short finger.. this you know. The short finger will be on the left side and the long finger will be on the right side (when viewed from the rear of the frame). The short finger will rest on the back side of the trigger transfer / trigger disconnect bar.. my first pic will show this. The transfer bar catches just the bottom of the sear cam assembly.
The long finger (not to be confused with the middle finger) will contact the right side of the sear cam assembly in the "V" notch. My cam has 2 "V" notches... the left one is visible in the first pic... but is not used.. the long finger of the spring will fit in the other one.

IMPORTANT! The bottom of the main spring fits into a shallow "U" grove in the frame just about the height of the back strap pivot / retaining pin. If the spring falls out of this groove...(when installing the back strap) the spring will fall to the bottom of the frame... and this COULD cause the trigger transfer / sear disconnect bar to not be pushed back up into position after the slide cycles.

The second pic is an exploded view of the MAB Model D as the parts are in relation to each other.. not necessarily the frame. I tried to get everything as close as I could to frame position... but it wasn't happening. In that pic you can see the main spring in relation to the cam assembly and the transfer / disconnect bar. Te spring is in the correct orientation (curvature wise) for installation.

Last note.. you might want to make sure the "extractor" spring is working... if the "extractor" is free to flop around during operation it wont hold the shell in place and it wont give the shell a place to "pivot" as the firing pin pushes the spent shell
Finally... I shoot the .32ACP in mine.. only issue I have had was a feeding problem... I covered that find and fix in a post here on TFF.
Hope this helps.

[northstar]

Thanks ShawnDow for the pictures of the breakdown. It helped a lot. I had lost my username and password and just recently found it again. Once again, Thanks!