good news for tokarev owners

[oscarmayer]

magsafe makes a 52 grain "defender" that goes 2120 fps with 519 ft lbs of energy. # 7.62 tok defender

[Stl_shooter]

Where can I find some of that at?

Brian.

[Austing]

Cheaper than Dirt <www.cheaperthandirt.com>, Midwest Hunter's Outlet <www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com>, and The Online Gun Shop <www.theonlinegunshop.com> all carry Magsafe 7.62x25mm Tokarev.
By the way, in case anyone has the bright idea of using this for armor-penetrating purposes, it is not a solid lead-core round, but has a lead shot core. In other words, this penetrates LESS than the standard 7.62x25 FMJ.

[gyrfalcon]

[strike]This post seems like SPAM...[/strike]

Magsafe is over priced and potentially dangerous 7.62x25 ammo.
http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammuni...d_cz-52_a.html

If it's not garbage they have a marketing scheme that's similar to extreme shock ammo.

"MagSafe Ammo is faster, recoils less, and stops attackers faster than any other ammunition in the world. Elite forces are outfitted with MagSafe, from Navy SEALS to the Royal Hong Kong Police anti gang units, from big city undercover narcs to guards at some of America's meanest prisons."

Even space aliens that'll eat your brains use magsafe ammo!!!

[techoca]

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

This post seems like SPAM... Magsafe is over priced and potentially dangerous 7.62x25 ammo.

Begging your pardon sir, you have insulted an upstanding member of this community.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by techoca

Begging your pardon sir, you have insulted an upstanding member of this community.

Eh, no insult intended in suggesting the member was intentionally spamming. My opinions on Magsafe ammunition remains the same though.

[BigJakeJ1s]

Originally Posted by techoca

Begging your pardon sir, you have insulted an upstanding member of this community.

The day this community holds ANY of its members above question is the end of the community. Sure, there are tactful and tactless ways to respond, but accusing that a member has insulted someone else (not even yourself) by this informative response is even further out of line. Spam (in this case, disreputable information) is often forwarded unknowingly by reputable individuals.

I agree that mag-safe's marketing claims are well beyond the norm for acceptable levels of product hype.

Andy

[oscarmayer]

if indeed magsafe is garbage and unsafe please tell me how you've come to that conclusion . i've used mag-safe in a number of calibers and have not been disapointed yet. and yes i've so far fired 24 rounds through my tokarev all without issue. but being a safety minded guy if you would be so kind to provide facts as to how so and please base it on a fact not a hear-say ok with that said i'd bet money a article was wriitten by someone that blew up his gun using mag-safe. i have no doubt someone at one time used a mag-safe round in a well used armscor 38 spl and now the guns timing is off. or perhaps shot a steady diet of mag-safe in a alloy framed gun and it now rattles like a can of marbles. but if you could provide some type of proof they are unsafe i'd be happy to stop using them and giving out reconmendations.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by oscarmayer

if indeed magsafe is garbage and unsafe please tell me how you've come to that conclusion...but if you could provide some type of proof they are unsafe i'd be happy to stop using them and giving out reconmendations.

I said "potentially" and referenced an article where someone had the case neck brake off in the chamber. Here is another link to someone who had case head failure with .357 SIG magsafe ammunition:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121994

The ammunition appears to be loaded with high charges. It has also received fairly bad in-depth technical reviews:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article432.htm

The ammunition is also very expensive compared to other 7.62x25 rounds. I'm pretty sure I would be hard pressed to find any other manufacture that sells a single round of ammo at over $1.97!

If you're happy with it, more power too you I guess.

[oscarmayer]

there are no other hollow point ammo to be had for the tokarev. and one reported case failure doesn't make it unsafe. and yes they are loaded hot. lets look at the facts these are not true hollow points they are fragmentation rounds designed to do just as the article you highlighted shows. they are low penetration rounds that dump their energy into it's intended target. they are meant not to over penetrate are are perfect for use in a apartment type complex or a structure with thin walls. they are used in various different hostage situations and by more than one departmant. with lawyers chomping at the bit to sue for reckless actions i highly doubt they would be used by "professionals" are glasers unsafe too ? both these rounds are made to cause the most amount of damage in the shortest possible penetration. of course you're intitled to your opinion but i base my intent to continue to use them on real world applications not sides of beef and one case failure.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by oscarmayer

there are no other hollow point ammo to be had for the tokarev...they are meant not to over penetrate are are perfect for use in a apartment type complex or a structure with thin walls. they are used in various different hostage situations and by more than one departmant. with lawyers chomping at the bit to sue for reckless actions i highly doubt they would be used by "professionals" are glasers unsafe too ? both these rounds are made to cause the most amount of damage in the shortest possible penetration. of course you're intitled to your opinion but i base my intent to continue to use them on real world applications not sides of beef and one case failure.

Are you affiliated with this company in any way? Do you sell magsafe ammuniton? First off it's completely bogus that there are not any other brands of 7.62x25mm hollow-points available. Secondly you're posting in a reloading area where people are generally interested in loading their own ammunition.

I'm against using any ammunition that claims reduced penetration in a self-defense role. Maybe some SWAT teams are okay wearing body armor, and using frangible ammunition in their automatic weapons when raiding an apartment complex... but if I'm in a self defense situation i would want a round that could penetrate and damage the vital organs of the person I was confronting. I suppose you're one of the folks that thinks .410 birdshot is a good defensive round too?

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

Actually, this is not strictly a reloading forum, you can talk about ammo, in general, as well as talking anything and everything about reloading. Whether he sells 'em or tends to overdo it with telling everything about the ammo, is up to him. I, for one, don't want ta kill li'l Mary after shooting Bad Bob in the chest. (Not that I would fire a high velocity round that over-penetrates.) With that said, JHP, HP and Fragible rounds are great for stopping a typical perp, sometimes dead. Those generally overpriced bb-shots wouldn't work well, for me.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by Mosin_Nagant_Fan

Actually, this is not strictly a reloading forum, you can talk about ammo...With that said, JHP, HP and Fragible rounds are great for stopping a typical perp, sometimes dead. Those generally overpriced bb-shots wouldn't work well, for me.

Agreed on the topic not just being about reloading. If you look at the article I linked to above which is titled "MagSafe Ammunition Demonstrates Inadequate Terminal Performance for General-Purpose Personal Defense Use" it discusses how these rounds are not very great in stopping a perp.

"The terminal performance demonstrated by the MagSafe .45 ACP +P Defender cartridge shows that it is incapable of meeting the challenge of a commonly encountered personal defense situation. The reasons are as follows:

The # 2 birdshot produces tiny, pin-prick hole sized wounds.
The amount of birdshot carried in each bullet is too little to produce substantial injury.
Penetration depth of the birdshot is erratic.
The diameter of the shot pattern is too large when it hits the upper torso to produce significant injury."

The discussion over exotic ammo has already been covered by experts here:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Exotic_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

Eh, no insult intended in suggesting the member was intentionally spamming. My opinions on Magsafe ammunition remains the same though.

Are you affiliated with this company in any way?Do you sell magsafe ammuniton? First off it's completely bogus that there are not any other brands of 7.62x25mm hollow-points available. Secondly you're posting in a reloading area where people are generally interested in loading their own ammunition.

He's got 1800+ posts and ya think he was SPAMMING?????

I'm all for open discussion and disagreements, but you're something else when it comes to placing your opinion above others.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

He's got 1800+ F'n posts and ya think he was SPAMMING?????

Your self-righteous arrogant attitude is pissin me off ! We'd be better off without you here, go back to the AR forums.......

I'm all for open discussion and disagreements, but you're something else when it comes to arrogant and pig headed.

I'm not on AR forums, and I redacted my comment about spamming which was uncalled for. How exactly have I been arrogant? I've disagreed with you about 5.56 vs .223 and it seems you're upset about that.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

Are you affiliated with this company in any way? Do you sell magsafe ammuniton? First off it's completely bogus that there are not any other brands of 7.62x25mm hollow-points available. Secondly you're posting in a reloading area where people are generally interested in loading their own ammunition.

I'm against using any ammunition that claims reduced penetration in a self-defense role. Maybe some SWAT teams are okay wearing body armor, and using frangible ammunition in their automatic weapons when raiding an apartment complex... but if I'm in a self defense situation i would want a round that could penetrate and damage the vital organs of the person I was confronting. I suppose you're one of the folks that thinks .410 birdshot is a good defensive round too?

Really??? Are you serious about that? Youre the type of gunowner that blasts the first thing that crawls through your bedroom window with a .44 mag loaded with 300 gr solids at 1300 fps. The very type of gunowner that will kill the baddie and everyone in the next apartment over with your 'rounds that will penetrate and damage the vitals'... Have you ever even shot a gun? A standard velocity .45ACP 230 gr load will penetrate the length of a bulls neck, this I know from experience. A 9mm luger loaded with 115 gr Hp rounds will penetrate through a feral hog, this I know from experience. A .38 special loaded with 148 gr wadcutters at 750 fps will still go through a stray dog, this I know from experience. A gun owner wanting to protect his home with something that will kill the badguy effectively and not the neighbors kids in the process is a responsible gun owner. I want your address so i can be sure never to live near you.... And yes, the .410 shotshell is a quite effective close range home defense round. Thank god i dont know from experience and I hope I never find out, but a 1/2 oz column of birdshot at 1275 fps is basically a highly frangible slug at across the livingroom distance.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by JLA

Really??? Are you serious about that? Youre the type of gunowner that blasts the first thing that crawls through your bedroom window with a .44 mag loaded with 300 gr solids at 1300 fps. The very type of gunowner that will kill the baddie and everyone in the next apartment over with your 'rounds that will penetrate and damage the vitals'... Have you ever even shot a gun? ....Thank god i dont know from experience and I hope I never find out, but a 1/2 oz column of birdshot at 1275 fps is basically a highly frangible slug at across the livingroom distance.

I'm completely serious that bird shot is not suitable as a self-defense round. Maybe you just want to piss off people with your self defense rounds and not stop threats? The box o' truth has covered using bird-shot for self-defense if you want to bother reading what they said about it: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

I believe you'll see his opinions on bird-shot for self-defense echo my views. Didn't you say something along the lines that you thought it was irresponsible for someone to claim something was safe when it hasn't been proved by a reputable source?

[woolleyworm]

Well then, lets just hightlight a wee bit of arrogance for you then....... you come in here and write posts from a 24 hand horse ( if you can even figure that one out....)

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

I'm not on AR forums, and I redacted my comment about spamming which was uncalled for. How exactly have I been arrogant? I've disagreed with you about 5.56 vs .223 and it seems you're upset about that.

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

Agreed on the topic not just being about reloading. If you look at the article I linked to above which is titled "MagSafe Ammunition Demonstrates Inadequate Terminal Performance for General-Purpose Personal Defense Use" it discusses how these rounds are not very great in stopping a perp.



The discussion over exotic ammo has already been covered (so does this mean we have no right to discuss it here???) by experts here:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Exotic_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

[quote=gyrfalcon;646780]Are you affiliated with this company in any way? Do you sell magsafe ammuniton? First off it's completely bogus that there are not any other brands of 7.62x25mm hollow-points available. Secondly you're posting in a reloading area where people are generally interested in loading their own ammunition. (if you can't see the arrogant nature of this entire comment, then I have no futher use for you, personally, you owe the man an apology) ( why not post a link to the other available ammo instead of just calling it "completely bogus"?? We here have all accepted that we're not perfect and are here to help out, not put down and try to put people in their places.....) ( Your use of "FIRST" and "SECONDLY" are most certainly uncalled for and just rude )

I'm against using any ammunition that claims reduced penetration in a self-defense role. Maybe some SWAT teams are okay wearing body armor, and using frangible ammunition in their automatic weapons when raiding an apartment complex... but if I'm in a self defense situation i would want a round that could penetrate and damage the vital organs of the person I was confronting. I suppose you're one of the folks that thinks .410 birdshot is a good defensive round too? ( again, not sure where you interpret some of this and pull this info out of other people's heads.... but it's quite classless)[/quote]

Other than that, PISS OFF ( or at least the point of view can take a hike)! be objective and think before you post, you have some good points of discussion, just a horrible delivery.

and nobody here has ever thought birdshot to be suitable defense ammo, but in a pinch, I sure as heck would take it over a .22

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

...(if you can't see the arrogant nature of this entire comment, then I have no futher use for you, personally, you owe the man an apology) ( why not post a link to the other available ammo instead of just calling it "completely bogus"?? We here have all accepted that we're not perfect and are here to help out, not put down and try to put people in their places.....) ( Your use of "FIRST" and "SECONDLY" are most certainly uncalled for and just rude )....again, not sure where you interpret some of this and pull this info out of other people's heads.... but it's quite classless) and nobody here has ever thought birdshot to be suitable defense ammo, but in a pinch, I sure as heck would take it over a .22

I consider posting in large fonts classless and arrogant, but that's just me. I've linked to plenty of rounds that have a highly proven track record for self-defense. Instead of talking about the Magsafe ammunition itself you have resorted to attacking me for calling him a spammer, and calling my "tone" rude.

Magsafe ammunition has bird-shot inside of it in an epoxy core which you would have known about if you bothered to read my posts. It's also one of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) round you can fire from a Tokarev which no one here wants to discuss either.

Generally when someone posts about some super high-performance round that costs over 16 times more than standard military grade 7.62x25 ammunition I think of spammers or someone pushing a bogus product as a knee jerk reaction.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

I'm completely serious that bird shot is not suitable as a self-defense round. Maybe you just want to piss off people with your self defense rounds and not stop threats? The box o' truth has covered using bird-shot for self-defense if you want to bother reading what they said about it: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

I believe you'll see his opinions on bird-shot for self-defense echo my views. Didn't you say something along the lines that you thought it was irresponsible for someone to claim something was safe when it hasn't been proved by a reputable source?

Who the hell said i claimed it was safe? Firing a weapon inside a house is dangerous no matter how you cut it, that should be common sense. I stated that .410 shotshells would be quite effective at close range on a soft target (thats a politically correct term for bad guy). The very thing the 'box o truth' proves to be a 'downfall' to the use of shotshells for self defense I see to be a bonus (i.e the lack of penetration through walls and or floors) But you shoot someone in the face with a 2.5 inch .410 shell loaded with a half ounce of #7.5 shot and they will be badly injured if not dead right there. I dont know how big the average living room is where youre from but round here 10 feet is a long shot. You seem to only post 'facts' or links that support your way of thinking. What about all the self defense columns written by sheriff jim wilson, he praises the use of shotguns for self defense and hes as reputable a source as youre source. The point is the argument is no different than the disagreement between you and i right now. There isnt anything wrong with a healthy debate and discussion but youre presenting your "facts" without an open mind. I find it very classless and distasteful, and IMO, doesnt belong here on TFF. But lucky for you, that isnt my call.

My apologies Oscarmeyer for the thread drift, Let it not discourage you to post future useful information.

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

I consider posting in large fonts classless and arrogant, but that's just me. I've linked to plenty of rounds that have a highly proven track record for self-defense. Instead of talking about the Magsafe ammunition itself you have resorted to attacking me for calling him a spammer, and calling my "tone" rude.

Magsafe ammunition has bird-shot inside of it in an epoxy core which you would have known about if you bothered to read my posts. It's also one of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) round you can fire from a Tokarev which no one here wants to discuss either.

Generally when someone posts about some super high-performance round that costs over 16 times more than standard military grade 7.62x25 ammunition I think of spammers or someone pushing a bogus product as a knee jerk reaction. ( then enough knee jerkin from you, think and then post)

We would be more than happy to discuss it, but let me take one of your posts and put it in a way that would be much more open to Discussion....... ( you are having a hard time seeing the light here and I'm thinking that this may very well be pointless, but in an ugly sarcastic way, this is were we have ended up )

"Are you affiliated with this company in any way? Do you sell magsafe ammuniton? First off it's completely bogus that there are not any other brands of 7.62x25mm hollow-points available. Secondly you're posting in a reloading area where people are generally interested in loading their own ammunition.

I'm against using any ammunition that claims reduced penetration in a self-defense role. Maybe some SWAT teams are okay wearing body armor, and using frangible ammunition in their automatic weapons when raiding an apartment complex... but if I'm in a self defense situation i would want a round that could penetrate and damage the vital organs of the person I was confronting. I suppose you're one of the folks that thinks .410 birdshot is a good defensive round too? "

My Interpretation of a better way to state it :

It's my opinion that the magsafe ammo isn't sufficient for self defense purposes. Based on some online research that I've done, it doesn't appear to have adequate penetration to have true put down capability. These links (insert research links here ) have some results that I found valuable.
There is another company that offers HP Tokarev ammo, (insert link here). So there are other options out there that may have better stopping power for critical situations.


FWIW - Do you have, own or even fired a Tokarev before? and yes, I have fired plenty of ball ammo through a CZ-52. I have never thought of using it for a defense gun and therefore never explored any defense ammo options for it.

this thread drift is over for me,,,, enough time wasted, onto more fruitful and actual discussion

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by JLA

...you seem to only post 'facts' or links that support your way of thinking. What about all the self defense columns written by sheriff jim wilson, he praises the use of shotguns for self defense and hes as reputable a source as youre source....but youre presenting your "facts" without an open mind. I find it very classless and distasteful, and IMO, doesnt belong here on TFF. But lucky for you, that isnt my call.

I would be an idiot to post facts and information that disagree with my opinions. When I was talking about safety, I was talking about the safety of a person who is mislead into believing bird-shot or exotic ammunition (containing bird-shot) is adequate for self-defense purposes.

Shotguns are great for self defense if you use the proper ammunition (slugs/buckshot). An air rifle has the potential to kill someone if you're lucky too, but I believe it's ludicrous to say it could/should be used for self-defense. Now before you go off saying "I never said air rifles should be used for self-defense!!!" please understand I know that. I'm trying to say birdshot is inadequate in a self-defense role just as all the other people I've linked to have said:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

They also say the same about Magtech ammunition. In fact I was trying to find a story about a man who shot someone with magsafe ammunition and it superficially wounded his attacker, but that posting appears to have vanished.

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

FWIW - Do you have, own or even fired a Tokarev before? and yes, I have fired plenty of ball ammo through a CZ-52. I have never thought of using it for a defense gun and therefore never explored any defense ammo options for it.

Yes I've fired or currently own Tokarev's, PPSh-41's, CZ-52's and quite a few other firearms chambered in 7.62x25. I'm also on a Makarov mailing list if you care.

Maybe my postings come across as ugly, sarcastic or disagreeable. It's not exactly in my nature to fondle and be nice about everything I write, or watch out so I don't hurt anyones feelings or egos. You seem more concerned about me being a dick/jerk than you do about this ammunition, it's performance, or what it costs... more power to ya.

[oscarmayer]

wow this sure took a turn. but let me say this. no i do not own stock in mag-safe and i subcribe to the school of dr. martin fackler. and for the record NO ONE makes a hollow point for the tokarev. if you know of one please tell me who makes it's and before you say wolf , they have discontinued it. now perhaps you should enlighten yourself. it's all about hydrostatic shock and engery transfer. maybe if you read of attended a class teaching "HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS" you'd be better suited to debate the facts rather than recycle internet articles written by keyboard commandos, who have little if any real life experiences. my only point here was to, inform anyone who cared mag-safe made a good defense round for the tokarev. and if anyone who ever bought a package of mag-safe and was responsible would read the warnings on the back side. they are hot and to be used on in modern, strong, and good condition firearms. you show up with nonsense about them being unsafe and site one reported case failure for the love of god please get a clue before you spout off nonsense there are far to many internet "experts" passing along misinformation pass along facts not something you heard from a guy who knew a guy that met a guy and he said ........

[oscarmayer]

my goal in a defensive situation is to stop my attacker. is the super dupper mag-safe going to do that and not over penetrate YES.... same for the glaser safety slug. please take note of the word safety in the products name. why is that ??? they do not over penetrate and kill your sleeping child in the next room. is it the best round no not by a long shot ( excuse the pun) but for the tokarev it's the ONLY option at this point since wolf has discontinued making hollow points.personally 90% of the time i count on my hi-power and it's loading with plain jane winchester silver tips. but this isn't my shoot the bad guy in the house gun, because i worry about the middle of the night and being scared witless, and not being able to be 100% sure i could hit center mass and not over penetrate and kill my nieghbor (which at times has crossed my mind ) for the things that go bump in the night i have a diamondback loaded with 158gr lswchp non plus P, or a single action colt in 45lc also loaded with winchester silver tips. and next to the wife is a snake charmer in 410... my goal is to stop the threat i do not care if the threat isn't killed i just want it stopped with out putting anyone else in harms way. frangible ammo does this as it was designed to do. your opinion is your opinion you can read all the net crap you want, opinions are like belly-buttons everyone has one, again my point was to inform of an option for tokarev users, your point was to piss on my leg.