FlintLock Musket

[TX_DRAGON]

i have a musket i would like some help in identifying it. it has matching numbers on stock and trigger mount. it has markings of an elephant with a crown on its back with a bee in the crown and the letters D L in the wings of the bee. overall length is 67 inches, barrel is 53 inches can anyone help ?

[TX_DRAGON]

the barrel is 53 inches not 57 sorry

[rhmc24]

To possibly ID your piece,, please show pix of the whole gun and close ups of the mechanism and other parts.

[hrf]

Welcome to the forum.

The D and L on a bee's wings was a trademark of Dresse Laloux of Liege, Belgium:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...aloux%20gb.htm

[TX_DRAGON]

where is the elephant and crown markings from ?

[rhmc24]

I venture to confirm it is old, probably 1800-1850, a trade gun, not military. Looks like the wood fore end has been shortened. Normally goes out to within about 4" of muzzle. It may have been a trade gun for arctic use as in Canada. The extra large trigger guard and trigger said to facilitate use with gloves or mittens.

The barrel on this type is usually pinned into the fore stock with cross pins, about a foot apart out to about 5 or 6" from the muzzle. When the wood is shortened the pin loops on the barrel usually filed off. You can check for evidence of that. Wood could have been removed due damage or to reduce weight, etc.

[hrf]

Originally Posted by TX_DRAGON

where is the elephant and crown markings from ?

I don't know, maybe a more elaborate mark that Laloux used on guns for the African trade? You might mail your photos to host of the littlegun site:

http://www.littlegun.be/mise%20a%20j...che%20mail.htm

Dresse Laloux later became Georges Laloux, and some African trade flintlocks are shown here:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...orges%20gb.htm

And as such, your gun may date well after the original flintlock era. G. Laloux registered the bee trademark in 1881.

[TX_DRAGON]

any idea of what the worth of this musket might be ?

[Jim Hauff]

There may be a French connection - IIRC Napolean revived the 'honey bee' as a symbol of his empire - it had ancient Gaullic roots reaching back to the Merovingian dynasties that arose after the fall of the Western Roman empire to the Visigoths, et alia.

[TX_DRAGON]

i looked at the site you sent on little gun, but the bee looks diffrent .

[TX_DRAGON]

thanks to all of you for the help, i will check back later and add more photos.

[TX_DRAGON]

you said IIRC Napolean revived the honey bee as a symbol of his empire, would he have changed the look of it from the D L symbol ? because i looked at the D L symbol and they are different .

[jack404]

the crown over elephant ( Dutch crown , all crowns are different) with the bee is the mark of the Royal Dutch Line also known as Douwe Egberts , (he started a few brands that moved all the royal produce and got backed by the royals and grew) makers today of maccona coffee ( or licence holders ) white ox tobacco and a few other things this is a company own by the Dutch royal family , but back then very similar in nature to the Dutch east indie's company or many other colonial organisations , their own armouries trading posts ships etc.. the lock itself looks english , but hard to say from the pic these people bought by contract and trade deals so had arms from many known and unknown suppliers , it could be made to order or the days equivalent to a "hardware gun"

Theres a good piece on these in a book called "the history and arms of colonial Europe" by boyd ( Arthur J ) and its one of the biggest mismashes of history for anyone to get into , sorry but everything i read leads me to think its mission impossible in many cases to say where a arm came from when associated with Dowe Egberts or the DRF ( Dutch Royal Family corporation)

they still, today, are one of the most powerful families in the world , and co-convenor of the builderberg meetings every 2 years

[Jim K]

FWIW, I am thinking oriental; the DL/bee connection tends to miss the elephant, which is a common symbol in India, Thailand, and other places where it is native, and often is a symbol of royalty. There may even be a connection - a musket made in Belgium for some kingdom in the orient. A guess, of course, but I think that is all we have here at the moment.

Jim

[jack404]

Jim it could be oriental

the Dutch at the time set up factories in many countries making many things
Guns too ..

if theres a proofmark on the barrel that would supply more info than the house mark

[Jim K]

Hi, Jack404,

Can you obtain a picture of the symbol used by the Dutch company (ies)? The British East India Company certainly had guns made and marked for them, so I see no reason the Dutch equivalent would not have had similar arms. Those companies were minor empires, with their huge plantations and private armies and navies to protect their property and trade routes. Sometimes, especially when royal families had heavy investments in them, the tail wagged the dog, and the "companies" set their nation's foreign policy in their areas of influence, effectively controlling European and native armies.

Jim

[jack404]

i'll scan you the page that shows the house marks , i'm at my girlies place ATM so book not here but will when i get the storm mess fixed ( its been nutz here eh )

the dutch had different marks for different ventures too , the portuguese partnerships ( Goa, india and Indonesia) had different marks but the same crown ( i think it was a Bull under the crown)

and they did business with the french and via the belgians , the arabs , these enterprises ( sub houses) also had different marks , but i got a chart in the book that shows it and the lines from where many big outfits today came from ( British east indies company became thomas cook and a few others )

[jack404]

Elephant was also a symbol of the house of habsburg at one time ( leopold 1 maybe?) of hannibal crossing the alps, it was his house armours symbol in the late 1600's through to about 1720 or so when it was redone by Charles the 6th when he became Holy Roman Emperor, King of Bohemia, Croatia and Hungary, Archduke of Austria, etc., in 1711

i'll suss it all out and post it

[TX_DRAGON]

yes there is barrel markings, but i haven't been able to figure them out, i will take a photo and post them . thanks for the help. ok here are the barrel marks i see 1 is the number 22 don't know anything abut the other 2 .they are on the left side of the barrel.hope this helps.

[jack404]

PDF doc with a list of proofmarks


http://min.us/mb7y52G

take a look at that and the mark on the far right of the pic ..

[TX_DRAGON]

witch proof mark are you referring to from the list? what country ?

[TX_DRAGON]

there is 1 more mark it is above and to the right of the crown attached is a photo of it .

[hrf]

Originally Posted by TX_DRAGON

yes there is barrel markings, but i haven't been able to figure them out, i will take a photo and post them . thanks for the help. ok here are the barrel marks i see 1 is the number 22 don't know anything abut the other 2 .they are on the left side of the barrel.hope this helps.

You need to use the macro setting for closeups as your photos are too fuzzy.

However, they appear to be the Birmingham, England inspection and proof marks used 1812-1904, consisting of crossed scepters with a crown and letter V for view, and the same crossed scepters with letters BPC. http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/proofmarks.html

[jack404]

hrf , i thought that at first glance but there is a crown ABOVE where the crown on the birmingham proof sit's ( see pic 1 and compare to pic two )

the crown is not the broad and round british crown .. its more similar to the belgium crown ( all crowns are different ) more pulled in at the base than even the belguim crown though ... but happy if it is a BPM ( and is a proofmark for far more than shotguns , its just part of a page from a book )

and yes a clear shot would help , thats why i asked the OP to look , as he's got the only clean look at it

[hrf]

Jack, I'm sure the proofhouse made many replacement proof stamps over the years, and the exact size, etc varied. And artists's renditions vary also, compare the left one to right one here:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/proofmarks.html

The left one appears closer to the fuzzy pic he shows, and may be an earlier style, and the "enhanced" view in middle is somewhere in between..

His gun is a plain utility grade example, and probably an African trade musket made for export to the colonies.