Unknown Iver Johnson safety 38 - The Firearms Forum

jonnidye · 06-26-2011, 02:46 PM

Hello everyone I am trying to figure out what I have. It’s a five shot 38 S&W and what I think is a Iver Johnson safety automatic with markings on the top of the barrel (J & Cycle Works ASS. U.SA). On the bottom of the trigger guard it has the number 5020. I know this number means secret service model… however this gun is a snub nose and the grips do not have the owl on them… was this gun just put together or is this rare model?

hrf · 06-26-2011, 03:24 PM

Welcome to the forum. You appear to have an Iver Johnson that has had the barrel cut off in midst of the address, and with grips from a similar Harrington & Richardson revolver.

The "real" serial number should be on the grip frame under left grip, with a letter prefix. Also, are there patent dates on bottom end of the butt?

Edit: And fuzebox is right, it's a 3rd model made after 1908 for smokeless powder, with a crosspin holding front of trigger guard instead of a screw.

Jim Hauff · 06-26-2011, 03:27 PM

Is that a blob of sealing wax over the left grip screw? BTW - I'm with hrf on this one - The H&R "Target Logo" patented grips don't belong on it.

fuzebox40 · 06-26-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrf

You appear to have an Iver Johnson that has had the barrel cut off in midst of the address

I vaguely recall reading (somewhere in his book?) Bill Goforth noting that the 2" barrels he'd seen and owned all had been cut through the lettering or the front sight grooved through it. I believe the point he was making was that as far as he could tell, the factory made the 2" option from allready stamped standard length barrels rather than going to the expence of manufacturing it separately or having an alternate lettering layout. So probably whether or not it is grooved for a front sight and if it actualy a 2" barrel might be at least some indication to whether it's factory or a owner cut job. As I said, just going from vague memory here so...
It's a Third Model by the way, and it is a .38 but I don't think it's a Secret Service Model

fuzebox40 · 06-26-2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Is that a blob of sealing wax over the left grip screw?

I think you scrape a little out with a pocket knife and hold it in place of a front sight!

jonnidye · 06-26-2011, 08:20 PM

Hi guys thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I am not sure as to why there is red wax/plastic on the grips. this gun was my grandfathers. I took the grips off and noticed it had the same 5020 number with no letter prefix on the handle or on the bottom of the trigger. The barrel does not seem to be cut by hand, so maybe it could be one of the ones mentioned. Does anyone have any idea of the value?

hrf · 06-26-2011, 09:07 PM

A 3rd model with no letter prefix on the serial under grip indicates a special order, for which there are no records, and your gun can only be dated in range 1909-1941.

Since the grips are not original, the special order may have been pearl or oversize target grips, now missing.

If there's a slot in end of barrel for a missing front sight, the short barrel might be factory, but if no sight slot probably not. (Post a pic of muzzle if you like)

Value will be less because of the mismatched grips and lack of front sight, maybe $100 + or -

06-26-2011, 02:46 PM	#1
jonnidye Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 2	Unknown Iver Johnson safety 38 Hello everyone I am trying to figure out what I have. It’s a five shot 38 S&W and what I think is a Iver Johnson safety automatic with markings on the top of the barrel (J & Cycle Works ASS. U.SA). On the bottom of the trigger guard it has the number 5020. I know this number means secret service model… however this gun is a snub nose and the grips do not have the owl on them… was this gun just put together or is this rare model? Attached Images -->

06-26-2011, 03:24 PM	#2
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Unknown Iver Johnson safety 38 Welcome to the forum. You appear to have an Iver Johnson that has had the barrel cut off in midst of the address, and with grips from a similar Harrington & Richardson revolver. The "real" serial number should be on the grip frame under left grip, with a letter prefix. Also, are there patent dates on bottom end of the butt? Edit: And fuzebox is right, it's a 3rd model made after 1908 for smokeless powder, with a crosspin holding front of trigger guard instead of a screw. Last edited by hrf; 06-26-2011 at 07:31 PM..

06-26-2011, 03:27 PM	#3
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Unknown Iver Johnson safety 38 Is that a blob of sealing wax over the left grip screw? BTW - I'm with hrf on this one - The H&R "Target Logo" patented grips don't belong on it. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

06-26-2011, 08:20 PM	#6
jonnidye Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 2	Re: Unknown Iver Johnson safety 38 Hi guys thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I am not sure as to why there is red wax/plastic on the grips. this gun was my grandfathers. I took the grips off and noticed it had the same 5020 number with no letter prefix on the handle or on the bottom of the trigger. The barrel does not seem to be cut by hand, so maybe it could be one of the ones mentioned. Does anyone have any idea of the value? Attached Images

06-26-2011, 09:07 PM	#7
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Unknown Iver Johnson safety 38 A 3rd model with no letter prefix on the serial under grip indicates a special order, for which there are no records, and your gun can only be dated in range 1909-1941. Since the grips are not original, the special order may have been pearl or oversize target grips, now missing. If there's a slot in end of barrel for a missing front sight, the short barrel might be factory, but if no sight slot probably not. (Post a pic of muzzle if you like) Value will be less because of the mismatched grips and lack of front sight, maybe $100 + or - Last edited by hrf; 06-26-2011 at 09:14 PM..