Syracuse Arms Damascus Double Barrel?

[Robert]

First, my name is Robert. This is my first post here, I am glad to have found this site, looks like a good campfire. I found the site when I was doing a search for info about an 1893 Syracuse Arms Double Shotgun. It is also marked 'New Era Nitro Hammerless.' Someone had posted some info about L.C.Smith, and aparently he was involved with Syracuse Arms, but I havent been able to find any info on this specific gun. I sure would appreciate any help. Thanks.

[Xracer]

Hi Robert......welcome to TFF.

I've checked thru my reference materials and can't find anything on the Syracuse Arms company.

I know there was such a company, because every once in a while I see their shotguns up for sale.....

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976318026.htm

I've also heard that L.C. Smith worked for, or was involved with, another gunmaker in Syracuse, NY, before he started his own company, but whether or not that was Syracuse Arms, I don't know.

L.C. Smith made shotguns under his own name in Syracuse from 1880 until 1888.....so even if he had been associated with Syracuse Arms earlier in has career, he wasn't there when your shotgun was made.

Let me do some more checking around and I'll see if I can come up with something.

[Xracer]

Still checking, Robert.

Here are some questions & answers I came up with from Ron Gabel's site:

http://www.gabelguns.com/QuestionsAn...ionNumber=3790

http://www.gabelguns.com/QuestionsAn...ionNumber=2287

http://www.gabelguns.com/QuestionsAn...ionNumber=3354

I'll keep looking.

I am on the trail as well.

So far I have found

The Syracuse Arms Company was a gunmaker located in Syracuse New York from 1888 to 1908.

Here is more from shotgun expert Russ Ruppel.

I would believe these dates over the ones I posted above, as the website I found the others on had a bnch of information that is screwed up.

Russ is a double shotgun historian and generally knows his stuff.


[quote]I never heard of one marked "New Era" which was a hardware store brand name but I do have a speal on the Real Syracuse Arms guns:

Syracuse Arms Company was founded by Frank Hollenbeck after he left Baker Gun & Forging Company in Batavia, New York, and returned to Syracuse in 1893. Between 1893 and 95 Frank had nine patents assigned to Syracuse Arms Co. The early guns are very tricky to take down, but Frank's patent number 523,813 for a "Movable Cocking Shoulder for Breakdown Guns" made this easier. After a couple of years Frank left to make bicycle seats but the company continued to operate until possibly as late as 1908. The earlier guns are marked "The Hollenbeck" and after Frank left in August 1895 they are often marked "The Syracuse." Syracuse Arms Company guns were made in two series -- the stock guns, which had grades designated by numbers 00, 0, 1, 2, and 3; and the special order guns which had grades designated by letters, A, A-1, B, C, and D. List prices in the 1902 catalogue ranged from $30 for the 00-Grade with Triplet Steel barrels to $475 for the D-grade with either Whitworth Fluid or Damascus barrels. Operating in the Syracuse area the company had access to some of this country's finest engravers in the Glahn family. I briefly owned a straight-gripped B-grade that had some of the best engraving (not in quantity but in execution) I've ever seen on an American gun.
The ejectors for Syracuse Arms Co. were designed by George A. Horne and featured a cut-off to set them to just extract if wanted. Two excellent articles on Frank Hollenbeck were published in The Gun Report -- "The Syracuse Arms Company and Frank Hollenbeck" by the late A.C. Atterbury in the July 1988 issue, and "New Notes of Frank A. Hollenbeck" by H.J. Swinney in the September 1991 issue. I believe they sell back issues -- phone (309) 582-5311.
------------
I would only add that there were about 40,000 made total and value is from $100 for a low grade clunker to about $3500 for a top grade in mint condition of which only about 3 are extant. 20ga are scarce. [?quote]

[Smokin Guns]

Welcome Robert! Looks like these fella's are on the trail for ya. I'll take a peek around too!...

[Robert]

Some interesting data there, especially the aricle by Russ Rupel. I looked further and found mine is marked '0' grade. dosent sound like it could be worth more than a few hundered bucks. It is in pretty decent condition though. A freind of mine is interested in it for his hunter safety course to demonstrate the Damascus barrel, and I will probably make a good deal to him for it. I sure am glad I found this website, I posted a link on my favorite forum for the rest of the guys that I usually yak with. www.flyinglead.info
Feel free to drop on in sometime. It is a great bunch over there too.

I am glad we could help. Don't be a stranger

[rick morris]

My syracuse is a 00 model 70% stock still in good shape some bluing gone I talked with a dealer at the last charlotte gun show aboutthe syracuse He said the market for these old guns is on the rise due to so few manafactured and so few left in functioning condition becareful when you sale they will not be making any more of these fine guns and the ones left will only go up in value if taken care of and not messed with just thought i would relay this info rick morris

[briandowalter]

i also have just purchased a damascuss syracuse double barrel shotgun the only markings i can find on the outside of the barrel are syracuse company syracuse, ny. On the opposite side "new twist". Are you aware of other characteristic markings anywhere on this particular shotgun? Is it authentic and if so, how much do you think it's worth? Hammerless, black powder shotgun. Thanks for any help or info you could offer.

[rick morris]

Take off the forarm and look under at the receiver it might be marked there

[Dan Boone]

I have a Syracuse Arms Company double barrel that has been in the family a very long time. It says " The Hollenbeck" made by Syracuse Arms Company It has serial ##4671 and has a Damascus Barrell. It is in very good condition and I believe it is a 12 gauge but can't be sure. We can not find any other markings but would like to know it's value approximately. I would appreciate your help, Dan

[Anchor Clanker]

Good Morning Robert. (good name, same as my sons)
I have four listings for guns with some form of the name NEW ERA. Two of them are
New Era Gun Works, New York Nitro Hammerless and New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless Pat. August 12 1884. These guns are hammerless models (of course) and were made by the Baker Gun & Forging Co. The third name is New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless Pat. August 12 1884 with 2 Quail in a Circle. This gubn was made in Belgium by Simonnis, Janssen & Dumoulin of Leige Belgium. Look for a Belgian proof mark consisting of the letters "ELG" in an oval stamped on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm. The fourth name is just New Era Gun Works and the reference says that this name was possibly used by Baker Gun & Forging on some shotguns.

[chopper2534]

I am currently doing a restoration on a Syracuse Arms Triplet Steel double barrel and I am trying to locate a Schematic for this firearm, does anyone know where I might locate this item.
Thanks

[Bob Mc]

I have found in my father's safety deposit box, after his death, a US Revolver Co. .32 caliber revolver with serial number, 12706. It is in excellent condition. What is it worth?

[RJay]

Bob, with a question about a complely different type of firearm it would be best to strat a new post. You should also read the posst availabe in refence to US Arms ( Iver Johnson) Mr Goforth, who wrote the book on Iver Johnsons will need a little mor information.

[kris]

I have reciently come into possesion of a double barrel, "Syracuse Arms Co." Serial number 19793 with an engraving of "J2" and "Modified Barrel" it's in good condition with a full grain wood stock. How can I find out it's worth and weather I should do anything to other than clean and test it?

[Chendo]

Originally Posted by Anchor Clanker

Good Morning Robert. (good name, same as my sons)
I have four listings for guns with some form of the name NEW ERA. Two of them are
New Era Gun Works, New York Nitro Hammerless and New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless Pat. August 12 1884. These guns are hammerless models (of course) and were made by the Baker Gun & Forging Co. The third name is New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless Pat. August 12 1884 with 2 Quail in a Circle. This gubn was made in Belgium by Simonnis, Janssen & Dumoulin of Leige Belgium. Look for a Belgian proof mark consisting of the letters "ELG" in an oval stamped on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm. The fourth name is just New Era Gun Works and the reference says that this name was possibly used by Baker Gun & Forging on some shotguns.

Question on your posting. I have a letter T stamped on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm. New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless , with the Pat. August 12 1884 with 2 Quail in a Circle. Do you have any info on these gun?

Thank you,

Rosendo

[reb87]

If you email me pics of your guns I can give an approximate value and identification of them. Ross
ross@berck.org

[Winchester 71]

Originally Posted by Anchor Clanker

Good Morning Robert. (good name, same as my sons)
I have four listings for guns with some form of the name NEW ERA. Two of them are
New Era Gun Works, New York Nitro Hammerless and New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless Pat. August 12 1884. These guns are hammerless models (of course) and were made by the Baker Gun & Forging Co. The third name is New Era Gun Works New York Hammerless Pat. August 12 1884 with 2 Quail in a Circle. This gubn was made in Belgium by Simonnis, Janssen & Dumoulin of Leige Belgium. Look for a Belgian proof mark consisting of the letters "ELG" in an oval stamped on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm. The fourth name is just New Era Gun Works and the reference says that this name was possibly used by Baker Gun & Forging on some shotguns.

I have one of these that fits your first description: "New Era Gun Works New York Nitro Hammerless" is on the barrel rib just forward of the breech. The only thing on the barrel lug (underside) is a serial number, 516xx on the right barrel flat and a letter "T" on the lug behind the screw. On the receiver, the same serial number is on the flat for the left barrel. In front of the trigger guard is a circular engraving that reads Patented August 12, 1884 with a lovely engraving of a duck in the middle. The barrels are chocked extra full. A full choke guage will not slide in. One barrel is about .686-.688" the other .688-.692" measured with a digital caliper. Chambers are at least 2 3/4.

I have three questions:

Will you share your source on the Baker Gun and Forging Company listings regarding New Era?

I heard New Era was a "house brand" for a hardware store or something. Is there any information on that?

One gun smith was looking in his reference regarding Baker before they were bought by L.C. Smith, and he had no mention of New Era at all. Baker Gun and Forging was around for a discrete number of years and that would help date the gun.

The barrels have the appearance of damascus. I was told by the gunsmith I purchased the gun from that they were NOT damascus, but were made to look like them as that was very popular at the time. The barrels are quite thick and heavy and I'd think it would be safe to shoot modern "classic double" ammunition in those places where you can't shoot lead. It's also my understanding that damascus got it's bad reputation from inferior quality Belgian barrels that would definitely fail and that there are several grades of British damascus barrels, made in the day, that are supposedly quite safe to shoot.

Part of his reasoning that my barrels are not damascus is that the same figuring is on the flats on the bottom, and each barrel has a small area just aft of the fore end keeper where the barrels have been scraped and there is no sign of the damascus figuring once you get down to white metal.

I just got the gun this year, it's in great shape and I've had it out for pheasant once just last Saturday.

Thank you!

[RJay]

The name New Era was a Trade/Store brand name owned and used by an unknown retailer. Your shot gun was made by Simonnis,Janssen & Dumoulin of Leige Belgium. Under varies names as people died, and sons and nephews moved into the partnership, this company was in business untill the 1950's before they closed their doors. references, well the Standard Catalog of Firearms is handy, along with Joseph Vorisek works, The Breech Loading Shotgun in 1860 to 1940. You can google Syracuse Arms Company And Baker Arms Co and gain some valuable information. S,J shotguns were some of the better Belgium shotguns , even so this was produced for the trade to be sold as cheaply as possible. Value would be on a par with other Trade name Belgium shotguns, in other words, don't quit your day job.

[Winchester 71]

Hi Ron, I know about trade brands and also know retailers had guns at all price points. This one isn't Belgian, it's American made with the appearance of an LC Smith or a Parker. The fit and finish are just too good to be Belgian. An older fellow I was pheasant hunting with last weekend commented how much it looked like his Parker! It's my understanding Baker was an inventor and likely hired high quality gunsmiths to do the work, rather than do it all himself. It's similar in a lot of ways to the London gun trade where a lot of very fine guns were built in Birmingham by local craftsmen. I appreciate the leads and will follow up on them. Is there a way to post pictures on the site?

[Winchester 71]

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17434920
I'm thinking I have a Batavia era gun, but the serial number is just under the 6000 range mentioned. The barrel has a T, which apparently is an indication of the material used. It still appears to be an American made gun, not Belgian. I will try to contact the authors of the article. There is a good picture section, mine appears most similar to the box locks at the end of the picture series.

[richardc2850]

I have just come across a syracuse arms damascus double barrel, the only thing that I can find on this gun is syracuse arms company, syracuse new york on the left barrel. On the right barrel is the words NEW TWIST Can anyone tell me anything about this, age, price range, anything? The gun is tight and was told it was last shot around 20 years ago. This is a 20 gauge gun. Thanks in advance

[DeeJames]

Originally Posted by Robert

First, my name is Robert. This is my first post here, I am glad to have found this site, looks like a good campfire. I found the site when I was doing a search for info about an 1893 Syracuse Arms Double Shotgun. It is also marked 'New Era Nitro Hammerless.' Someone had posted some info about L.C.Smith, and aparently he was involved with Syracuse Arms, but I havent been able to find any info on this specific gun. I sure would appreciate any help. Thanks.

Hi Robert ,
My Cousin just found his dads Damascus new twist Syracuse Arms Company Shot Gun It is worth a fortune the Company was founded in 1888 and closed in 1908 I Just Googled Syracuse N.Y. Arms company and found a old news clipping I will try to find it again and send it to you here bring your gun to an apprasier Hope this Helps
Dee James