Himmler Presentation Pistol

[Longlaker]

Can anyone give me an approximate value for this pistol?

[RJay]

Well, I'm on a budget so I personally would not give more the 200,000 for it.

[Juker]

Trying to find that "long low whistle while drooling" emoticon...

[Jim K]

I have seen several Nazi-era presentation pistols, and pictures of many more.

I know I will catch flak, but IMHO, that gun is a fake. Oh, it is a genuine Walther PP, presumably of the 1935-1945 timeframe, and the engraving is extensive and well done. But every presentation pistol I have seen had the recipient's name and usually some indication of the reason for the presenation plus slogans, etc. engraved into the gun. A plain engraved gun, even one with possibly genuine SS grips with the name of the late very much unlamented Reichsführer-SS on a plate on the grips just doesn't "work" for me. It could be a presentation to someone else, but I think it is more likely post-war engraving work with fake SS grips added later (I doubt any German in the post-war era would have dared to make those grips - the penalites were too great).

So, a fake? Yes, I believe so, as far as the Himmler connection goes, and I believe the grips are fake as well. Otherwise, it is a nice pistol and a fine example of German "oak leaf" engraving.

Value? Whatever someone will give for it.

Jim

[Longlaker]

It's not a fake it's been in my family since my Dad returned from WWII. He was a highly decorated Platoon Leader in the 88th Blue Devils Recon Troop in Italy. In fact he is credited as the first Allied Soldier to enter Rome in it's liberation. He recieved a Silve Star Bronze Star and Purple Heart. He captured it on a raid behind German Lines. His troop was sent in to kill a high ranking German General and when they arrived the Germand had fled, but the coffee was still warm, He found the pistol under a pillow in the Master Bedroom.

[jjmitchell60]

Personally I would contact Walther and see if they can shed any light on it. As stated, it could be fake and the people at Walther can tell you if any were engraved for Himmler. IF collectable, then there are 1000 fakes out there for 1 real collectable. A pistol like that if not a fake would be dang near if not priceless.

[Jim K]

Like I said, I will catch flak, and no one can argue with the tales of a dead man, and a hero to boot. Stories are nice, but my opinion of the pistol is unchanged.

Jim

[permafrost]

Longlaker, I sincerely hope for your sake it is exactly what you say it is. As does everyone here I imagine. We would be the first to congratulate you. There are just so many very good fakes, it takes a real expert to say for sure and some documented provenance. Best of luck!

[Longlaker]

Thanks Permafrrost. Can you recommend some "real experts" I could contact.

[wonderwhippet]

Unfortunately, no expert can prove the authenticity of this pistol. What is needed is provenance, actual proof of the origins of this pistol. Jim K is right, there are many fake presentation pistols, but very few come with incontrovertible documentation. In the absence of such proof, one cannot set a true value on this pistol, though as a conversation piece, it may very well bring a few thousand dollars.

[hrf]

Looks identical to cased example shown by SSMN on this thread (6-09-2011, 5:13pm):

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=91000

[Jim K]

Perhaps SSMN can tell us what the plate on that pistol says, as I can't read it.

Another Himmler, maybe.

Jim

[Bill DeShivs]

If your dad broght it back from Germany, there should be "capture papers" noting the serial number of the gun.

[Danny]

I think I am on Jim's side for once. The give away on the pistol is the plate with Himmler's signature. It seems to be made of brass. Looking at the bottom you can see the green erosion starting to work on it.
Most of Himmler's pistols, that were note fakes, had his name engraved on the pistol, not the grips. Just my 2 cents fellows. I will contact Dieter Marschall & get his thoughts.
Kindest Regards
Danny

[Longlaker]

Ther are no capture papers. My Dad would tell the story that when General Wolfe was captured in Italy, General Mark Clarke instisted that his pistol be delivered to him. That put a real chill on the troops reporting spoils of war.

[Infidel]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Perhaps SSMN can tell us what the plate on that pistol says, as I can't read it.

Another Himmler, maybe.

Jim

I blew up the pic and it looks like H. Himmler as well. Same gun AFAIK.

[Alpo]

While I also doubt its authenticity, they are not the same gun. The gun in the presentation case has the Walther banner on the L/H side, but I can't see it on the gun in this thread. The picture on this thread is not as sharp, but it still should be visible. But the big differences are the engraving. On the hump at the backstrap the oak leaves are pointing in different directions. Below the front sight, there are oak leaves on this one, but not on the other one.

[hrf]

I didn't mean to imply they were the same specific gun, only that the motif was identical. An obvious difference is the crack in grip of the cased one. If authentic, the Himmler inlays likely identify him as the presenter, and not his personal guns.

[Road America]

Longlaker, do you know anymore about who the German general was? If he was an army general it wouldn't be so likely for him to have anything with Himmler's name on it, but if he was SS it would seem possible. The idea that it was a presentation by Himmler is a good one. It certainly wasn't Himmler's personal gun, he wasn't in Italy.
This is a very interesting gun, worth doing more research!

[Longlaker]

They are definitely different, mine is a PP while the gun in the case is a PPK.
Regarding the General they were sent in to kill, my father believed it was Wolfe although his troop was not told this specifically and here is where the controversy comes in, when Wolfe eventually surrendered he was carrying an Italian Barretta, although the West Point Museum claims to have Wolfes pistol. A very similar, but not as nice presentation pistol.

[SSMN]

Dieter Marschall in Germany would be the go to guy on a gun like this. I believe it to be authentic.
Regarding Alpo's comments pointing out differences between your gun and West Point Himmler. Of course there will be differences. Each is an original work of art and so unique in it's own right.

Mike...one correction. Both are PPs.

Also I suggest that you contact Tom Whiteman at Legacy Collectables. He has a number of engraved PP/PPKs.

[Alpo]

I was reading Infidel's post as saying they were the same gun. Not uncommon for the same gun to be posted as "this is mine" by more than one person. I was just pointing out that, while the decoration was extremely similar, it wasn't identical, so they could NOT be the same gun. If that wasn't what Infidel was saying, then I just mis-read. Happens.

[Jim K]

My comment was based on the thinking of the gun as one presented TO Himmler; I will say again that it is far too plain a gun (relatively speaking) to have been presented to the second most powerful man in the Third Reich. Could it have been presented BY Himmler? That might be more likely, but some pistols presented by him are known (the famous "9 Nov 1944" pistols for example) and they are much more highly decorated and have his name engraved in the slide, not simply engraved on a plate glued to the grips.

Could Himmler have had some "lesser" pistols made up for presentation to others, maybe Waffen-SS officers?

SSMN, you said in your earlier post that the pistol you pictured was "documented". Can you be a bit more specific as to the documentation?

BTW, which "General Wolfe" is being mentioned in some of the posts? Karl Friedrich Otto Wolff (note spelling) was SS chief in Italy, but was a high up and I see nothing to indicate he was ever near the front lines. He was a very close associate of Himmler (he had been Himmler's spy at Hitler's headquarters) and would, I think, have rated a much nicer presentation pistol.

Jim

[Infidel]

Originally Posted by Alpo

I was reading Infidel's post as saying they were the same gun. Not uncommon for the same gun to be posted as "this is mine" by more than one person. I was just pointing out that, while the decoration was extremely similar, it wasn't identical, so they could NOT be the same gun. If that wasn't what Infidel was saying, then I just mis-read. Happens.

I was just confirming the signature as Himmler. I actually didn't see(or really look for) the other differences. I could tell that they weren't the samegun of course, just both looked very similar and had HH's sig.

Damn good eye though Alpo! I would really like to see some confirmation on what that gun is. My interest is piqued now. That gun could be worth a pretty sum if proven its history.

Maybe LL should go to vegas to pawn stars and get Rick to call in his gun historian buddy to tell about it. Maybe he'll make it on next season?

[BETH]

i hope it is authentic please let us know if u find out and thanks for the story about your dad-wow