H&R Revolver

[onegungranny]

Hello again,

I'm still alittle confused about my revolver, It's serial # just doesn't make sense to me..it's only 3 numbers(227) and I believe Bill said all that he has seen is 4 digit numbers....Can anyone help with this issue?

Thanks, Granny

[jamesjo]

Probably just means that your revolver was made earlier than any of that model Bill has seen before.

[onegungranny]

Thanks james...I do want to sell it because I have no need for it and I would like to see someone have it that would appreciate it's history but I've had 2 offers and 1 was 50.00 and the other was 60.00 they both said it wasn't worth much. I've read Bills explanations on year, variation, and etc and I believe it's worth more than 60.00. It's not in bad condtion for 123 yrs old...no rust or bad piting...just needs a good cleaning.

[offmyrkr]

Hello. I'm new here and was wanting to get some help with a couple of pistols my father passed down to me. The first is a H&R 922 model m29679 revolver, and the second is a Mossberg Brownie 283L2 four barrel .22 pistol. The H&R is in real good shape, but the Brownie needs some work. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark

[Jim K]

I don't know what Bill said, but unless the gun is in like-new condition, it won't be worth much. Those guns are coming to interest collectors primarily because Colts, S&W's and other "better" guns are out of the reach of the beginning collector. And Bill has helped that trend by getting us to understand that the guns are collectible and worthy of study. But all that doesn't translate into dollars, and in average condition, they bring about what you were offered. You might set a price a bit more and let the prospective buyer haggle, but most of those guns were made in large quantities and were inexpensive when they were first sold. Most have not been well treated and show it and few will sell for even $100.

Jim

[onegungranny]

Thanks Jim for your input....I guess 60.00 isn't bad considering I didn't even know I had it til I opened grandpa's box.......

[Jim Hauff]

I think a general FYI is due here. I began collecting H&R firearms just about 16 years ago. At that time, prices were fairly low, because demand for these guns, as collectibles, was also low. I was able, for a couple of years to set my limit for purchase price at $100. The pricing guides available at that time, were woefully inadequate with respect to descriptions and information and well as pricing. As my collecting HABIT became more fixed in my psyche, I found myself in possession of most of the "commonly" available and lower cost examples, models and variants. I also found the prices rising a bit, from year to year - this from personal experience, not internet chatter or listings in so called authoritative guides. My collection expanded, as I became able to spend more on needed items. I found myself raising my bar to 200, then 500 and finally to over 1000 bucks for items that were scarce or were cross collectible. This often put me in "conflict" with S&W and Colt collectors, as well as generalist collectors. Over those past years, I have personally purchased over 600 H&R firearms, of all types and flavors - some of them quite rare and eminently desireable as attested to by the winning bids on on-line auctions, live auctions and gunshows, other collectors, etc. I became acquainted with several high level colletors of H&R specialty/rare/scarce firearms as well as several well known researchers/authors. During the past few years, as more information has become available both on-line and in print (primarily "THE BLUE BOOK..." rewrite) the interest in H&R firearms, as well as other "inexpensive" brands, has increased and the collecting of these firearms has driven the prices to higher levels. Over the past 3 years I have sold close to 200 examples of H&R handguns, of all ages and models, etc. - most being duplicates of better examples - and have only TWICE (out of approx. 200 times) either lost money or broken even (1 time each) with what I originally had invested in those pieces. Most of these ~200 items, were sold through one of the top on-line auctions and the remainder were sold, personally, by me at gunshows at which I worked with a couple friends who hold FFLs - in PA you must transfer ownership of modern handguns through a licensed dealer. In most cases my "GAIN on INVESTMENT" was 20 to 50% - in some cases it was as high as 142%. These returns are MEGA times better than any monetary investment that I've made in the past 30 years.
My point? Well, I'm saying that to baldly state that H&R, IJ, H&A, etc. firearms are cheap, inexpensive, poorly made S-N-S type firearms that don't sell for more than 100 bucks, is, well, just plain wrong. I've bought and SOLD H&R handguns for over $800. I've bought several shotguns for just under and just over $1000. I've bought several rifles (M1 Garands) for well over $1400 each.
I'm not suggesting that anyone should get into collecting any type of firearm and expect it to perform as well as my collecting/collection has - of course timing is everthing - but the fact remains - there are people interested in getting their feet wet in the collecting field and who don't want to spend their entire "poke" on one single example of a S&W Model 3 or Colt Model P SAA or a Winchester HighWall in 50-110, but would like to have several to many pieces of honest American historical firearms that show the development of that Industry over time.
I know this is long and probably boring to most readers, but I've been biting my tongue for years when reading the POOH-POOH that is written about H&R and other firearms of that class. Usually from people who have an agenda or bias towards the "QUALITY" collectible, in their estimation, firearms. Do what you want to do, but don't try to squash what others want to do.
I agree that the rewrite and repricing done for H&R firearms, beginning with the 29th Edition of "THE BLUE BOOK of GUN VALUES" by S. Fjestad, has gone a long way towards opening some folks eyes to the collectibilty and values of H&Rs. We need some "new blood" to get into the Hopkins and Allen, Forehand and Wadsworth, etc. collecting and research, so that these old venerables can take a rightful place in the collecting/pricing guides.
Thanks for reading.

Jim Hauff, H&R Collector and Researcher

[onegungranny]

Thank you Jim for your story and advice...Of course I would like to get the most $ for grandpa's old H&R. Maybe I just haven't found the right buyer as of yet. I know positively this gun has only 3 serial numbers 227 under the handgrip, on the cylinder it's 927 and underside of the gun piece where the cylinder goes it's 227 there also. I just do know the value, Bill said he hadn't come across a gun with only 3 numbers...So now with your input I'm not sure of it's value again...Thank You, Granny

[jamesjo]

list it on one of the online auctions.
Good pics, and description, and the biddrs will let you know what it is worth.

[onegungranny]

James, any idea's on a good online gun auction?...I'm not familar with them, just craigslist and ebay, those are the only 2 sites I've sold on.
Thanks, Granny

[Jim K]

Hi, Jim Hauff,

Good points, all, and you are one of those who can and do appreciate those guns. But there are still drawbacks to collecting them, at least as an investment. While a few of those guns may have been moderately costly when made, most were inexpensive. Not in the Suicide Special category, perhaps, but still in the $2.50-4.50 range when a Colt SAA was $16-18. And partly because they were inexpensive, few were cared for. Most were used hard, then given to the kids for "cowboys and indians" with predictable impact on the gun's condition. Only those kept in the box and stashed in the handkerchief drawer are in good condition today (and, yes, I have a few of those).

So two factors mitigate against collectibility and high dollar value - the huge numbers made and the poor condition of most examples today. But if there was a huge volume, there was also a large variety. H&R and IJ alone could keep a collector busy for decades just figuring out all the models and variations of handguns; I suspect you can ask Bill Goforth about that. And if shotguns and rifles are included, the variations become greater and more diverse, even ranging into NFA firearms like the Handygun and the Reisings, not to mention the H&R M14.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that most of those guns (the H&A made M&H guns are an exception) are not bringing high prices except for the most pristine examples. And I don't see anything in the near future to indicate that an average condition H&R or I.J. will bring hundreds of dollars. Maybe some will bring $1000 as you say, but I honestly don't know which ones.

Of course percentage return on investment is another story. I could have bought tons of those guns decades ago and paid an average of $10 each or less. Today, they would bring perhaps $50-75, maybe $100, a nice percentage return, but a long way from Paterson territory.

Jim

[Jim Hauff]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Hi, Jim Hauff,

Of course percentage return on investment is another story. I could have bought tons of those guns decades ago and paid an average of $10 each or less. Today, they would bring perhaps $50-75, maybe $100, a nice percentage return, but a long way from Paterson territory.

Jim

JimK,
You have a vast and well versed knowledge of firearms, that is readily apparent. As to "Paterson territory" - how many folks can get into that territory, let alone afford the membership?
With respect to H&R's - I still maintain that you are a bit off in your estimations. I've been working with Bill for about a dozen years now - my collection provided a pretty good percentage of his hardware research. I know H&Rs, I provided the pricing/valuations for the revised section of the "BLUE BOOK" by Fjestad. Your valuations for H&Rs are quite a few years behind the times. I routinely scour the on-line gun auctions, to keep up to date with selling prices for H&R firearms, and see very few pieces selling in the ranges you quote above, unless they're "parts" guns. As I posted previously, and I stick to my statement, H&R collecting has become much more prevalent in the past few years and the values have risen. Take a stroll on the "dark side" (LOL) and check out the H&R and Harrington and Richardson listings on the two or three top gun auction sites. I believe you'll be surprised and enlightened.
With all due respect,
Jim Hauff

[onegungranny]

Ok fella's...I just might hang on to grandpa's old H&R for a while. If it's not worth alot I think I would rather keep it and pass it on to my son, if interested. Just knowing it was his is worth more to me than 100.00. I don't even know when or where he got it from. Gramps was born back in 1895 and since it's an 1887 yr he might have gotten it when he was a young man...I don't know of any other guns he ever owned so who knows. I appreciate everyones input and the history of the guns is very interesting. I'll keep intouch with the forum for any new developments on the H&R revolvers.
Thanks much,
Granny

[jamesjo]

Best idea I've heard yet!
Why sell something that can never be replaced?
Some day, you may have been sorry.
Keep it, enjoy it, pass it on!
Jim

[Jim Hauff]

A note of reasonableness rings true from within the mists of confusion. Nice call JamesJo!

[jamesjo]

I have a couple guns that I paid my uncle $ 25 each for, shortly before cancer took him.
They are nice, but by no means your typical collector pieces.
There is no value on these, because they were uncle Harold's guns, they are not for sale.
I hate it when I see someone selling grandpa's guns just because they can get some money for them.
I tried to get my grandpa's guns, and no one knows for sure what happened to them.
Once again, not expensive, but they were grandpa's!

[Idaho Mike]

I have an old Harrington and Richardson 2nd Model, 3rd Variation "PREMIER", small frame top break revolver. The gun is nickle plated, and the plateing is still in fairly good shape. This is a 6" barrel in .22 Rim Fire. The serial number is: 397175. This gun had a set of the optional Mother of Pearl grips until my Brother-in-law dropped it. This was my Wife's Grandfather's gun. I need to clean the gun up, and replace the broken grips and hinge pin. I am wondering if any of you can tell me what this gun might be worth? I am also wondering if you can tell me where I might find a replacement set of Mother of Pearl grips, hing pin, etc?

[Jim Hauff]

With a six inch barrel: excellent condition -$300 +/-25; poor condition $65. Your piece will fall somewhere in between those values, depending upon condition; fairly good shape is too general to form a good estimation. I know of NO commercial sources for the MOP grip panels (perhaps someone else does?) - they were an option offered by H&R and hand fitted to your gun. You might find a pair offered on one of the on-line gun auction sites under either H&R or Harrington & Richardson headings - but you may have to visit them several times a week for a couple months or longer - they don't show up very often. For the hinge screw (the part that goes through the ejector disc and holds the top barrel/cylinder assembly to the bottom frame) try: www.e-gunparts.com

Without grips and with a mechanical problem (hinge pin? ejector not working?) with Good condition finish (60 to 70% remaining, in Nickel - your piece would probably value at RETAIL in the $100 - $125 range. 6" barrel is one of the more easily found variations, Standard is 3", hard to find is 2" (Bicycle version) and 5".

[Idaho Mike]

Jim: Here is a picture of the gun. Thank you for the information.

[Jim Hauff]

Idaho,
You're welcome and thanks for thanking. I see that you are missing the hinge screw - entirely - make sure that the ejector disc is still in place or you'll have to order one of those also. Check the schematic on the Numrich site (www.e-gunparts.com)

[Idaho Mike]

Jim:

You are right that the ejector disc is missing. I am not able to find a schematic of this gun on the Gunparts web site. I also do not know if the trigger return spring needs to be replaced, or if the gun is just dirty. I have to push the trigger forward a fraction of an inch to get the trigger to reset. I really want to restore this old gun. I will not end up with it, but it will be charished by the person that does end up with it.

[Jim Hauff]

Mike,

Go to this Numrich page: http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=7941

They have the parts for the ejector and a schematic offered - it is marked as the NEW MODEL - which IIRC is how they call the smokelss varieties. The POLICE model is the same with a patented "bobbed" hammer. Broken trigger return springs are very commonly found on these, as well as many other, H&R models. They also list a trigger spring - sounds like yours is merely gummed up. The pieces with broken springs do not move at all under their own volition. Good luck!

[Idaho Mike]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Mike,

Go to this Numrich page: http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=7941

They have the parts for the ejector and a schematic offered - it is marked as the NEW MODEL - which IIRC is how they call the smokelss varieties. The POLICE model is the same with a patented "bobbed" hammer. Broken trigger return springs are very commonly found on these, as well as many other, H&R models. They also list a trigger spring - sounds like yours is merely gummed up. The pieces with broken springs do not move at all under their own volition. Good luck!

Jim,

Thanks for the information. I located an older Numrich Catalog that I had picked up at a SHOT Show several years ago. There was a notation about how to tell if the gun was a "new" model, or "old" model. I finally figured out how to get the cylinder off of the gun, and saw the "smooth" quill. This should make it an old model. I then called Numrich and placed an order using their "Police Premier" parts list, and told them it was an old model. I then told them that I needed the schematic. I was told that there weren't any schematics for this gun. I wasn't able to get on line so that I could give them the part number for this schematic. needless to say, once my internet came back up, your email was waiting for me. I had to call them back to finish the order. I now have a hinge screw, trigger spring, hook, and hook slide coming for the old model. They were out of the hook springs. I still don't know what I ordered as far as the hook parts. These parts were lost along with the hinge screw many years ago. Now all I have to locate is a set of Mother of Pearl grips.

Thanks for all of your help.

[Teejay9]

I like H&R revolvers. They're built like tanks and are of good quality. I can easily conceal my model 926 in .38 S&W. Not a powerful round, but I wouldn't want to take a hit from one. TJ