BATF&E commits a felony?

[Marlin T]

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) -- Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits.

"An investigation has revealed that you may have violated Title 18 U.S.C. Section 924(a)(1)(A), a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to five years," the letter began. The U.S. Code citation refers, in this instance, to knowingly making a false statement on the ATF Form 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record Part I -- Over-The-Counter," which is completed for each firearm purchased from a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL).

"The firearm that you purchased is being taken into ATF custody," the letter continued, citing no authority for the seizure.

Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) said the ATF letter and the reported interrogation of lawful gun buyers raise "serious questions."

"There's a way to have a sting operation that's legal. This dragnet, apparent dragnet, however, is not the way it ought to be done," Scott said. "You have to show probable cause and it can be done. But you ought not just stop people without probable cause and without any indication of guilt."

John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers.

"If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful.

"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. (A "straw purchaser" is a person who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm, but who does so with the intent to illegally provide it to an ineligible buyer such as a convicted felon or an illegal alien. "Straw purchases" are illegal.)

As Cybercast News Service initially reported, ATF agents working with as many as 400 state, county and city police officers near Richmond, Va., conducted so-called "residency checks" on individuals who purchased firearms from the Showmasters Gun Show Aug. 13 and 14, 2005. Uniformed officers went to the homes of prospective gun buyers, while they waited for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background checks to be completed and questioned family members and neighbors about the gun buyers' firearm purchasing habits.

In a subsequent report, Cybercast News Service detailed that ATF had conducted at least seven similar gun show "sting operations" targeting Richmond-area residents since July of 2004. ATF refused to discuss any of the operations with Cybercast News Service and refused to provide any documentation in response to Freedom of Information Act requests filed by the sponsors of the Richmond gun shows.

Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator who has worked with the America's Most Wanted television program, was hired by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to gather information about ATF's Richmond operations. During her investigation, she learned that the agency had been conducting "residency checks" in at least one other U.S. city, but using different and "much more intimidating" tactics.

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"

Federal law requires licensed gun dealers to complete an ATF Form 4473 for each firearm sold through their business, in addition to any forms required by the state, county and/or city where they do business. Private sales between individuals, who are not engaged in the firearms trade as a business, are subject to no such federal recordkeeping requirements. Therefore a gun show purchaser could legally sell or even give the gun they purchased to someone else yet have no paperwork to meet the ATF's demand.

"You and I know that, but [a woman who bought a gun and then gave or sold it to someone else, both legally] probably doesn't," McComas told Cybercast News Service. "If she can't produce it, they arrest her for a straw purchase and her life turns into a living hell until she can prove otherwise. It's zero probable cause except for the fact that they thought it was a straw purchase because she was black and she was young and she was female."

McComas questioned not only the legality of the ATF tactics in Pittsburgh, but also the methodology.

"When I asked them what their criteria was for the people that they collected the 4473s on at the Pittsburgh show, the answer I got back was, 'If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. That's all we need,'" McComas continued. "Translation: Under 30 and black, period. That's all they were looking for. Anyone who meets those criteria, they're doing a follow-up on."

She said that, as in Richmond, agents in Pittsburgh were also engaged in activities that gun dealers believe were designed to discourage lawful purchases by minorities.

"Anyone who was a minority, they picked up their 'tail,' if you will, and just followed them through the gun show. When they stopped at a table, the agents would literally stand on one side or the other and watch what they were doing. If they started to purchase a gun [the agents] would ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what did they need that gun for," McComas related. "It was ridiculous. There was absolutely no reason for it other than the color of their skin."

Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass.) said he had not intended to attend the hearing, which was held immediately after a subcommittee vote on an unrelated bill, but stayed because he was fascinated by the witnesses' testimony.

"These must be the dumbest ATF agents in the entire agency," Delahunt said. "I am absolutely shocked that they could be that stupid.

"It's almost to the point that it's difficult to believe," he added. "I have never heard of an experience like the ones you recount, but you all seem to be in agreement. It's just mind-boggling."

Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

Feeney suggested that, since ATF had refused to comply with the Freedom of Information Act requests from the gun show promoters, the subcommittee should request the information they were seeking. Coble noted that such a letter had already been sent.

ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office. ATF officials are expected to testify on the issues raised Wednesday in a second hearing scheduled for Feb. 28.

"Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

I'm sure that someone did, but they are the law right? Who would better know the law.

Does this mean that everyone that votes for more gun control is committing a felony? Democrats beware, and some Republicans too.

[shooter4]

Startin to sound the like the book I'm reading.

"Enemies, foriegn and domestic".

[Marlin T]

Originally Posted by shooter4

"Enemies, foriegn and domestic".

Sounds interesting, who is the author?

[shooter4]

Mathew Bracken

Great book, I'm near the end.

[Marlin]

BATFE couldn't have committed a felony.

Didn't you know that they have no law applicable to them and can do no wrong????????

[wolfgang2000]

Originally Posted by Marlin

BATFE couldn't have committed a felony.

Didn't you know that they have no law applicable to them and can do no wrong????????

You don't know how true your statement is! That is their mine set. MOST BATF agents I've met believe that the NRA and gun owners are the "enemy"! The also believe they are above the law. The agency is out of control.

I'm sure there are good BATF agents, Ive just never met one that didn't have the above attitude.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by wolfgang2000

You don't know how true your statement is! That is their mine set. MOST BATF agents I've met believe that the NRA and gun owners are the "enemy"! The also believe they are above the law. The agency is out of control.

I'm sure there are good BATF agents, Ive just never met one that didn't have the above attitude.

And should be abolished, Wolf! Those SOBs are as bad or worse than the IRS, stormtroopers in suites.

[Marlin T]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

And should be abolished, Wolf! Those SOBs are as bad or worse than the IRS, stormtroopers in suites.

Amen Pistol I second that, and everything else everybody said about the BATF$E.

[wolfgang2000]

There was talk of "merging" the BATF with another federal agency in the 90's. The deal breaker was they could not find an agency that wanted to take their agents. That speaks volumes!!!

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by wolfgang2000

There was talk of "merging" the BATF with another federal agency in the 90's. The deal breaker was they could not find an agency that wanted to take their agents. That speaks volumes!!!

I'm not surprised, Wolf. After all, who would want rejects from the German SS?

[Bruce FLinch]

99% of the BATF Agents make the other 1% look bad

[JohnK3]

http://www.tripoli.org/documents/bat...ntDecision.pdf

This is an interesting read. It basically describes how a Federal Judge explained to the ATFE that just because they're *supposed* to be experts at something, they can't make an arbitrary decision and make it stick, just because they say so.

Folks, this is a disturbing path the ATFE is taking. If they manage to exclude rocket motors from the definition of "propellant actuated devices" which are supposed to be EXEMPT from the Safe Explosives Act, then they have a precedent to start excluding anything else they desire from exemptions, just because they don't like it.

[1952Sniper]

Folks, this is a disturbing path the ATFE is taking. If they manage to exclude rocket motors from the definition of "propellant actuated devices" which are supposed to be EXEMPT from the Safe Explosives Act, then they have a precedent to start excluding anything else they desire from exemptions, just because they don't like it.

They pretty much already have that power. Title 18 U.S.C, Chapter 44, Section 925(d)(3) gives the Secretary of the Treasury (now the Secretary of Justice I assume) the power to arbitrarily decide which rifles are "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes". One single man has the power to ban firearms from importation if he thinks it's not "sporting". Congress freely gave him that power. And since these types of politicians usually don't know anything about firearms, who do you think they ask for advice? Yup, the BATF. So now the BATF is the ones deciding which firearms they want banned from importation. Unelected agents of our government who cannot be removed from power by the People, are the ones determining which imported firearms we are allowed to keep and bear.

[gmatov]

So, if the importation is your big beef, why don't you try buying a US made arm?

I mean, an H&K or a Glock is the ultimate? A big a**ed 4 stacker, you load with a box and a half of shells? C'mon! How many attackers do you expect, and just how fat ARE you to be able to carry that thing, and not have everybody in the Tri-county area know you carry?

I think it was a fat guy with a big **s mag well who invented the double hand grip, most people can't wrap their mitts around them and use a supportive hand for 2 handed shooting, have to use both to get a grip ON the grip.

Try supporting the US mfgs. 700 buck Colt? Nah, I want a 1200 buck Glock. 700 buck Smith? Nah, I want a 1000 buck Kahr. Or a 1000 buck Beretta or whatever. The Wilsons and the like are no help. 1500 to "tune" your piece.

Where are some of you living, that you need 2 grand of a gun to feel safe? a "combat" weapon, in Chincopee. Any neighbor hears of that, he'll say, "Man, I coulda got a pretty nice car for that much, and it would get me to work every day."

I know, it don't matter, it's what I, capitalized "I" want. And it's supply and demand. They demand this much, you don't want it, hey, someone else will buy it. So you buy it and tomorrow you cry that gas has gone up a nickle a gallon, you can't afford to go to the range to shoot it.

What a f***ed up world this has become.

Some of you guys are to blame. We demand this, or we demand that. But you don't vote to put the sum'bitches out of office, send 'em home to be among the former constituents. No, just keep puttin' them back in. Sooner or later he'll get it right.

Ah, well, never mind, when there are no US mfgs left, few there are now, you might see the point.

Cheers,

George

[Meplat]

So, if the importation is your big beef, why don't you try buying a US made arm?

"...SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."

Nuff said.

Don't care for Glocks...but if my fellow shooter wants one, that's HIS business. Not mine. Not yours. Not the BATF's.

Don't care for Colt's particularly either, unless you're talking SAA's, (which I DO love) and those aren't normally on the CCW list. They still fall under the "...shall not be infringed" banner, so if that is your liking, have at it.

Carry a double stack Sig myself. Have no trouble at all shooting it two hand Weaver modified, strong side one hand or weak side one hand.

Had a Model 29 8 3/8" .44 Smith...even with two hands, it was a handful.

Also have a Springfield Armory fully customized long slide that took a little trip to the Bagby Custom Shop, came back oh so sweet. Not much of a carry piece though, unless you are that big dude from the Green Mile.

Have anything in YOUR house that is foreign made that you don't absolutely "need"? Real ugly path that one...

[Light Coat]

I don't mind paying a decent price for a license to own something. I get a little pissy when the idea is that you "can't have" something. In a free country; can't have is a big problem. I work on imports for the most part; might even say I love imports. The main problem we have with imports is not guns (except those produced in communist or former communist countries); it lies in the goods produced in slave labor countries. Cutting away Chinese products or highly inflating their tariff is the only way to save our collective posteriors.

I think the BATFE should be absorbed by the national sewage inspection department; so that they can run into some of their ideas in use. To be in the BATFE; I think that a school specializing in one of the initials should be absolutely necessary. Alcohol, tobacco, firearms or explosives; either you have a bachelor's in each or you can only enforce or inform on that particular to your degree. I also believe that under states rights they should only be allowed to enforce federal law after the state or municipal districts have made an arrest.

Fighting terrorism is a great and wonderful endeavor. I don't see why law-abiding citizens should suffer the loss of rights because of criminals. If we don't like someone at a federal level; why the hell did we let them immigrate here? Maybe if the idiots would enforce the laws already on the books we wouldn't have to create new laws for non-existant problems.

Where is Teddy Roosevelt when you need him?