Christians and Muslims

[carver]

I have had this on my mind for weeks now, and wanted your imput on it. I was talking to a person in a political position, and asked them what they thought of the Muslim men, and women in our Country, and did Sheria law have a place here. The response I got made me realize where this Nation is at, and where it is going. This person told me that Sheria law should not be allowed in America, anywhere. That first statement was promising, but then he did about what I thought he would do. He went on to say, (paraphasing here) "Muslims are like Christians. There are a lot of Christians that never go to a church, and there are a lot of Muslims that never go to a Mosque, and they are both good people". I have to wonder if people in America really believe they are Christian, even though they never read their Bibles, or never go to Church, and never pray untill someone near them is about to die? And just because a Muslim doesn't read his Quran, or go to the Mosque to pray every day, does that mean that he/she does not believe in Sheria Law? My take is this, if you don't go to Church, you don't pray, and you don't read the Bible, you are not a Christian! So, if a Muslim doesn't read the Quran, doesn't pray every day, and doesn't go to the Mosque, is he/she still a Muslim?

[terryu1]

I do not go to church regularly but I do pray every day. I personally believe you become Christian at baptism and it really does not matter if you pray or not or go to church or not. You are still Christian if baptised into the Christian faith.

I really do not know much at all about Muslims but I know enough to know that Sharia Law does not belong here!!. I have no problems with Muslims who choose to come here to live but I feel the same way as I feel about the Mexicans who come here. You must live by OUR laws and speak OUR language. {at this point the old fart steps gingerly down from soapbox}

[HunterAlpha1]

Originally Posted by terryu1

I do not go to church regularly but I do pray every day. I personally believe you become Christian at baptism and it really does not matter if you pray or not or go to church or not. You are still Christian if baptised into the Christian faith.

so sad, all those people who've repented of their sins but died before they could be baptized who're now burning in hell, all for the lack of having a bit of water splashed on their heads

[armoredman]

When you get to the other side, you can ask.

[Brisk44]

Muslims like christians are for the most part such from birth. The faith you grow up with in your household is the faith that sticks with you for life , like it or not. So when bad times come or as we age the faith of our youth has a much stronger hold on us. So in my opinion a christian is a christian and a muslim is a muslim period. That being said , they don't belong here.

[jbmid1]

Originally Posted by Brisk44

Muslims like christians are for the most part such from birth. The faith you grow up with in your household is the faith that sticks with you for life , like it or not. So when bad times come or as we age the faith of our youth has a much stronger hold on us. So in my opinion a christian is a christian and a muslim is a muslim period. That being said , they don't belong here.

Not quite.

According to the following. one must be "born again". They must make a conscious choice to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, at which point they are born of the spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

John 3
The New Birth
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [a]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born [b]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [c]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John’s Last Testimony
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison.
25 Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.” 27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves [g]are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the [h]Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; [i]for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [j]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by carver

... My take is this, if you don't go to Church, you don't pray, and you don't read the Bible, you are not a Christian! ....

Are you a Christian if you "do" go to church regularly, read your Bible and pray; BUT have not received Jesus Christ as your savior? (I know of many, MANY people that fall into this catagory.)

My take is:
Repentance of sin AND accepting Jesus (the Christ) as your "personal" LORD & SAVIOR makes you a Christian.

Praying, Bible reading and attending church is about "relationship" building!

-

[terryu1]

Originally Posted by HunterAlpha1

so sad, all those people who've repented of their sins but died before they could be baptized who're now burning in hell, all for the lack of having a bit of water splashed on their heads

Your sharp tongued response is noted but I clearly indicated that it was "my personal belief" I do not have a copy of the rule book on what makes or does not make you a Christian.

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by carver

So, if a Muslim doesn't read the Quran, doesn't pray every day, and doesn't go to the Mosque, is he/she still a Muslim?

Good question.

A muslim who doesnt read the kkaran doesnt pray or go to mask, hmmmmm sounds like that is a bad muslim, punishable by??????

a muslim who does do these things is a good muslim??????

a muslim who straps on a bomb and kills Innocent peole - now thats a great muslim. right?

lets see how long this post last

[Brisk44]

JBMID1 You miss understand what I am saying. I'm not talking about being saved or anything like that. My point is that we adhere to or revert to the beliefs of our families. So a muslim born will adhere to or revert to those beliefs so they will never fit in to our society.

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

Are you a Christian if you "do" go to church regularly, read your Bible and pray; BUT have not received Jesus Christ as your savior? (I know of many, MANY people that fall into this catagory.)

My take is:
Repentance of sin AND accepting Jesus (the Christ) as your "personal" LORD & SAVIOR makes you a Christian.

Praying, Bible reading and attending church is about "relationship" building!

-

Well SAid

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by Brisk44

JBMID1 You miss understand what I am saying. I'm not talking about being saved or anything like that. My point is that we adhere to or revert to the beliefs of our families. So a muslim born will adhere to or revert to those beliefs so they will never fit in to our society.

This is a great discussion. The other day before by threads were ripped off the forum I was trying to understand the lines we all came from. It is my belief that some people from a line may change but most will stay the same. In other words if you come from a father who was a mean killer of men your probably going to carry that on. Not to say all your children will follow. But more than likely your blood line has that trait in it.

Muslims will never fit into our society bacause they come from a different line. Too bad we could not have discussed this further. I was on to something and well anyway its over.

[Double D]

After much discussion, I reopened this thread for discussion and I hope it can remain civil.

[carver]

I want this thread to remain civil. My main intent here is to discuss the Muslim faith, much more so than the Christian faith. To be honost, it never occured to me that a person who does not believe the word of God, would consider himself, or herself, to be a Christian! And birth has nothing to do with your faith! I did not intend to steep on toes here. I think that there is a fundamental problem in America in the way we see the Muslim faith, and it's laws. It is my opion that we have the tendency to look at the Muslim faith, the same way we do our own faith, and that is a huge mistake. In America a man, or woman, can be an atheist, and still be a good person. Here, and all over the world, Christians obey the laws of God, and when they do mankind benifits. The laws of the land are seperate from the laws of God in the Christian faith, and in most religions. There is one "religion", however, where the laws of the "religion" are the laws of the land, and the laws of the faith. When you see a Christian in America who is from Spain, he abides by our laws, not his. It's not that way with a Muslim, where ever he goes, his laws go with him. He may, or may not, obey the laws of the land he is in, for a while, but his "religion" tells him that his laws are the way to go, and sooner, or later, he will start to live by them. It doesn't matter where he is, or what laws are in effect in that place. It is naive for anyone to think that a Muslim will drop the laws of his "religion" no matter where he is, or where he lives. He has to drop his "religion" too, in order to drop his laws!

If I ever meet a Muslim who does not live by his "religion", or his laws, I will witness to him about Christ, because he is ready to find something that really works for him/her.

[ka64]

Originally Posted by armoredman

When you get to the other side, you can ask.

Depends on which side......

[cycloneman]

Baptism is symbolic. It benifits the baby as well as the parents and God Parents. It reminds the parents of the obligation they have to their child. To raise them right. It is up to the child to confirm themselves later on in young adulthood. Baptism is symbolic of washing away sin, impure or evil thoughts.

A far cry from teaching your kid to strap a bomb on themselves and kill people.

I have this theory. God doesn't want stupid people. "What do you mean?"
Simple when Jesus said "those of you who are free of sin cast the first stone"
he said that to make you think, why should you pass judgement when your house is not clean? Same with a turd who straps on a bomb to kill innocent people. It's no different if you use stones or a bomb. Same result same thing. The thing is the turd with the bomb never had a symbollic baptism or parents who gave a s***. And in return the kids are lacking in intellegence, probably cause somewhere someone at sometime did the nasty with someone or something they should not have. And just like a bad breed of dog you get what you sow.

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by ka64

Depends on which side......

I don't think it does - -
In the higher places, you will get an honest answer.
In the lower places, you will get no answer or a lie, whichever is most painful for you.

Good, calm thread, guys - keep up the good work!

[carver]

As Tony on NCIS says, "Yes Boss"!

[Bobitis]

Ya'll know I hate these threads, so I'll ask some questions and bow out.

How does baptizing a new born mean anything? Other than an ego boost for the parents? The kid could grow up to be satans spawn. You never know. Some say the passage implies you be baptized with the holy spirit. Others claim you shall be baptized with water. I'll stick with water cuz that's all I've ever seen in any church. After my son was born, he was 'christened' because we weren't 'members' of the church. The church would not 'baptize' him. This leads me to believe that the particular church sets the rules. WTH???

Why should a serial killer or recuring child rapist be forgiven if he/she utters with their last breath a few words, and someone that has lead a righteous life (with no idea of Christ) should be condemned?

Anyone that practices sharia law deserves to burn in hell.

Carry on without me.

[jack404]

let's just quote Sharia law on this

a muslim is a muslim until they are a apostate or they reach paradise , their is nothing left to discuss,

the finding of the tariq ( council) of faith 1991

[jack404]

a video for those still debating

http://www.youtube.com/user/EurekaBr.../0/DXX4H03NjAM

[Python]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Ya'll know I hate these threads, so I'll ask some questions and bow out.

How does baptizing a new born mean anything? Other than an ego boost for the parents? The kid could grow up to be satans spawn. You never know. Some say the passage implies you be baptized with the holy spirit. Others claim you shall be baptized with water. I'll stick with water cuz that's all I've ever seen in any church. After my son was born, he was 'christened' because we weren't 'members' of the church. The church would not 'baptize' him. This leads me to believe that the particular church sets the rules. WTH???

Why should a serial killer or recuring child rapist be forgiven if he/she utters with their last breath a few words, and someone that has lead a righteous life (with no idea of Christ) should be condemned?

Anyone that practices sharia law deserves to burn in hell.

Carry on without me.

Christened/dedication, is for infants only and simply means that you profess to teach and instruct your child in the ways of our Lord. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith/change. Baptism is a personal choice and therefor infant baptism is meaningless. If anyone "TRULY" repents of their sins and accepts Christ as their Lord & Savior even on their death bed, they are forgiven, regardless of the nature of the sin. The only unforgivable sin is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to reject Christ, and His death on the cross as payment in full for our sins. No man is righteous except his righteousness be in Christ, and therefor the nicest person on earth will be held personally accountable for their sins on Judgement Day.

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Ya'll know I hate these threads

Please Bob dont take this the wrong way, but all the more reason you should participate. It's ok to hate the threads. But dont let that harden your heart.


How does baptizing a new born mean anything? Other than an ego boost for the parents?
As i said it is symbolic, the real work is up to the child when he grows up. The parents must provide the knowledge of Christ.

The kid could grow up to be satans spawn. Right it can happen.
You never know. Some say the passage implies you be baptized with the holy spirit. Others claim you shall be baptized with water. I'll stick with water cuz that's all I've ever seen in any church. After my son was born, he was 'christened' because we weren't 'members' of the church. The church would not 'baptize' him. This leads me to believe that the particular church sets the rules. WTH???

So what different churches have different rules. Pouring water over someone baby's head does not mean he is saved.


Why should a serial killer or recuring child rapist be forgiven if he/she utters with their last breath a few words,

Well a criminal is not going to get to heaven doing whatever he wants and thinking he is going to mumble I love Jesus at the end. Doesnt work that way. God knows what is in your heart. By the way thank God it is this way. Why? We all fall short. A true change of heart, spirit is what is required. The understaning that Jesus took on all of our sins that day on the mountain so we CAN be forgiven. It is up to us to accept it or understand what he did that day.

and someone that has lead a righteous life (with no idea of Christ) should be condemned?

I dont make the rules, but after Jesus walked the earth this is the only way. Here is a good question, can you be righteous with out knowing Jesus?


Anyone that practices sharia law deserves to burn in hell.
I dont make the rules but I agree.


Carry on without me.

Hope you come back.

[cycloneman]

I know this is a bit of a thread drift but consider this.

Lets say you are sitting in outter space looking at the earth. Now lets say the earth has no people on it. Just plants, and animals, fish in the sea. NO PEOPLE AND NOTHING PEOPLE HAVE BUILT.

Now look at earth with people on it and everything we have built.

Think about this for a min. All the buildings, refrigerators, vcr's tv's, kitchen tables, vehicles, houses and so forth that were built by people. It all came from that stuff under your feet. Dirt. In that dirt are the metals, elements, chemicals for man to engineer and make all those things we use. So next time you sit in your car remember it's just dirt.

Now if we can make these things with the limited knowledge we have what makes someone believe God could not create us from the same stuff? God is a heck of an engineer and chemist wouldn't you say?

[ampaterry]

Bobitis, the point about the bad guy who lives his whole life as a scum, then repents on his deathbed is a pretty commone problem that folks have with the Christian doctrine of Salvation by Grace. And Cyclone has answered it correctly; God sees our HEARTS and our INTENTIONS and does not judge us on actions alone.
Anyone who thinks they can be a willing scum their whole life and "trick" their way into heaven on their deathbed will have all eternity to realize how wrong they were, and regret it.

As for the one who has tried to live a good life but has not accepted Christ -
My take on that is a bit different than the Christian norm, but I will not get into that right now. Suffice it to say that I don't think they are POSITIVELY lost, and that, to many, is almost blasphemy.

GREAT thread, guys - and most excellent posts.
Keep it cool!