need help identifying a gun?

[Zane71464]

I have (what I believe) to be a russian Mosin Nagant bolt action rifle,
7.62x54R caliber. I have had it for years now and shot it when I first got it and it does shoot very well. However, I'd like to know just what "make/model" it is, or who made it. I'm totally confused on indetifying the gun...is it russian or finnish made? I have attached some picture of it and they show about all the stampings on the gun. It just isnt stamped as to just exactly what it is...and doesnt even tell the caliber. I only know that for the fact I took it to the gun shop to buy ammo for it. The only stampings I can find on it without disassembling the gun totally is what the pictures show.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also would like to know the value of it as well...(gave $100 for it)

[selleck2]

You might try www.aztecguns.com its awebsite for Mosin collectors.

[Zane71464]

I also was wondering the value of the gun? I would (assume) around 100 bucks without knowing much about it.

[selleck2]

Most shops/dealers sell Mosins @89.00-139.00 so you are correct.Keep in mind if it is a finnish re-arsenal it may be slightly higher.

[CHW2021]

Date shown is 1941, is it on barrel or reciever....post picture of reciever. The rear sight looks like a early (dragoon or westinghouse )one, the imperial crest shown makes me wonder, as this mark would not fit the 1941 date shown. Post detail pictures as the value is affected by age/import marks and reciever mfgr.

[Alpo]

I'm pretty sure that triangle with the T in it is Tula Arsenal, which makes it Russian.

edit: And then again, maybe not. I just checked my books, and while I can't find THAT mark, the Tula marks I do find, the triangle is going the other way. The point is at the top of the letter, not the bottom. So, I don't know. Although that does appear to be a Russian eagle, what I can see of it.

[Jim Hauff]

My best guess if that you have a very early 1891, probably made in France by Chatellerault for the Czarist Imperial Army, captured from or purchased from the Russians and was rebuilt in 1941 with a Finnish TIKKA (T in inverted triangle) barrel. Collector interest should be pretty high on this piece - value, rough estimate, between $300 and $450 if you can find the right person.

[Zane71464]

Ok, Ill get some more detailed pics on here of all marks on the reciever and so forth, unfortunatly my son has my camera, but will get more on here asap.
I hope to get my camera back tonight. VERY interesting as to the posts that you all posted about this. I looked up a few that was on a site and they were all marked like russian 7.62x54rh and what so forth...just looks like this one would have more info stammed on it or something, however when I get my camera back I'll definatly get some more detailed pictures posted and maybe you guys can read more from it. I thank you all for the info thus far!
Zane

[Jim K]

That is an old Model 1891, rebarrelled at Tula in 1941, when hundreds of thousands of the old rifles were being repaired and refurbished for the new war. A lot of history there but, unfortunately, not a lot of value. $100-150, I would guess.

Jim

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by Jim K

That is an old Model 1891, rebarrelled at Tula in 1941, when hundreds of thousands of the old rifles were being repaired and refurbished for the new war. A lot of history there but, unfortunately, not a lot of value. $100-150, I would guess.

Jim

Ok, Great! I was just getting ready to put more picturs on here. Well that's just what I was looking for Jim. Just one of those "need to know" kind of things.
About 15yrs ago my cousin came out wanting to wheel and deal and had this gun with his others. He had a bunch of shells for it and we fired the daylights out of it and it was fun to shoot. But after buying a 45 long colt lever action and a Browning 12ga auto off him he thru in the Nagant. (imagine that) lol
So it's been a wall hanger of sorts since then. But after staring at it in the den for some time I got it down and thought I'd try and find out just exactly what it was. Thank you and all the others for the good info on the gun!
Zane

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by Zane71464

Ok, Great! I was just getting ready to put more picturs on here. Well that's just what I was looking for Jim. Just one of those "need to know" kind of things.
About 15yrs ago my cousin came out wanting to wheel and deal and had this gun with his others. He had a bunch of shells for it and we fired the daylights out of it and it was fun to shoot. But after buying a 45 long colt lever action and a Browning 12ga auto off him he thru in the Nagant. (imagine that) lol
So it's been a wall hanger of sorts since then. But after staring at it in the den for some time I got it down and thought I'd try and find out just exactly what it was. Thank you and all the others for the good info on the gun!
Zane

Oh...just had to post this picture as well...it's on the left side of the barrel and it is a... SA inside a square. Wonder what that means?

[Jim K]

Well, here I am with egg all over my face; I really goofed. That Triangle T is a Finnish proof mark and the gun was captured by the Finns and rebarrelled in Finland. The SA is the Finnish Army property mark, and definitely establishes the Finnish connection. (There is no doubt about the rebarrelling; the old imperial eagle makes the original manufacturing date before the Communist revolution in 1917.)

So, the rifle has even more history, and I apologize for my error, but the value, alas, has not increased.

Jim

[Zane71464]

Oh okay, and no problem and thank you for the history information of it! I think its interesting just knowing about guns (older) and all guns history.
The ones I do own I always try and find out what I can on them so when I pass them on to my son, it will save him alot of time...but on the other hand, that's the fun part of it not knowing and then taking the time to do the research and finding out. Maybe if more of the younger generation would take the time to do such things,,,well maybe they would be spending their time more wisely. That's what I tell me son anyways.

[Monkey Hollow]

As referenced by Jim K above, the "SA" is the property mark, and translated, literally means STATE ARSENAL.

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by Monkey Hollow

As referenced by Jim K above, the "SA" is the property mark, and translated, literally means STATE ARSENAL.

Okay, another good point/fact to add to my notes on it. Appreciate that.

[Jim Hauff]

Check my posting above from yesterday. The valuations I posted are valid...we've sold around 7000 Mosin Nagants over the past 12 years - but very few of the Finnish pieces - they all have sold for well over 300 bucks. We also sold, early last year - an original Model '91 that apparently excaped from Russia during the revolution and had no import marks - that one sold for over 800 bucks. DON'T sell yourself short on this piece - it is a desireable collector item.

[TRAP55]

Zane, you have a Finnish M91, late production, Tikkakoski ( T in the triangle)barrel.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91F.htm

Pull the gun out of the stock and see what's stamped on the bottom of the tang. There will be a date and arsenal stamp that will tell you when and where it was made. The Czars crest stamp is intact (that's a plus), the Finns usually ground it off.
Careful when you separate the gun from the wood, watch for metal shims in the receiver area, and possibly small pieces of felt in the barrel channel. If either are encountered, make sure they are placed where they came out of.
You stole it for $100, if it were mine, $300 wouldn't talk me out of it. If that tang date is pre 1899 (antique classification), add another handful of cash to the value.
No importers stamp on the barrel is another plus.

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Check my posting above from yesterday. The valuations I posted are valid...we've sold around 7000 Mosin Nagants over the past 12 years - but very few of the Finnish pieces - they all have sold for well over 300 bucks. We also sold, early last year - an original Model '91 that apparently excaped from Russia during the revolution and had no import marks - that one sold for over 800 bucks. DON'T sell yourself short on this piece - it is a desireable collector item.

Wow, I'm getting some good information on this. Going to look (hopefully) some time this evening at all the marks on it and every stamp and what not on this gun. And then compare with all the info that's been posted. Not by ANY means doubting anyone's posts to this gun, just going to have to put it all together and get a good mental note. And Jim Hauff, sounds like you all have sold ALOT of the Mosin Nagants. I do appreciate the info you have gave me and will take that good advice quite to the letter. But what I am going to do is have a better detailed look at all the markings on the gun and try and take this gun somewhat apart...well all apart. I''d like to consider my self a (novice) gunsmith and when givein the time I can throughly get the job needed done. I may be posting more pics of this gun or more markings on the gun and see what is hiding under the wood.

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

Zane, you have a Finnish M91, late production, Tikkakoski ( T in the triangle)barrel.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91F.htm

Pull the gun out of the stock and see what's stamped on the bottom of the tang. There will be a date and arsenal stamp that will tell you when and where it was made. The Czars crest stamp is intact (that's a plus), the Finns usually ground it off.
Careful when you separate the gun from the wood, watch for metal shims in the receiver area, and possibly small pieces of felt in the barrel channel. If either are encountered, make sure they are placed where they came out of.
You stole it for $100, if it were mine, $300 wouldn't talk me out of it. If that tang date is pre 1899 (antique classification), add another handful of cash to the value.
No importers stamp on the barrel is another plus.

Thank you TRAP55 for the website. I think that nailed it down
(literally) down to the "T"! That there gave a world of information Ive been looking for. Now what I have to do is take your advice and pull the gun out of it's stock. I'm dreading that, but going to get the table out and all my tools and as you said..well basically (carefully) dissect the gun. And see just what is stamped on the gun. I want to thank you and Jim Hauff and all the others that have gave info input on this gun. Going to to copy and print what has been put in this so I'll have all the info readily when I have this gun taken apart. I'm very anxious to see just what all is stamped on this gun but as in the past was very reluctant to try and disassemble. However that just and has been, needed to be done. When I get it all to the metal I may be posting pics of more markings with more questions. But I hope that wont be the case. I hope it will with what I have learned here will be a tail-all any markings on this gun.
Zane

[Jim Hauff]

Be VERY careful removing the barrel/ hand guard bands - they are easily broken on older pieces and it is very difficult to find replacements.

[TRAP55]

Zane, collecting Mosins is called Mosinitus, like eating potato chips, you can't have just one. I got it bad, I recently had to buy my third gun safe just to house the Mosins.
The great thing about them is all those stamps. Once you can decode them, it can tell you the history of the rifle. So far we can tell your rifle was made for the Czar of Russia, captured by the Finns in The Winter War, re-barreled at Tikka, and back to war with the Russians that built it in WWII.
All parts matching serial numbers is a big plus, but it's unlikely that you'll find that on a Finn Capture. Check your parts (bolt, bands, magazine, etc. for arsenal stamps too. Sometimes you'll see a serial number on a part lined out and restamped, or electropenciled, these are called "forced matched", and were done at the arsenals that refurbished them.
Some of these rifles have been re-arsenaled, changed model number, and configuration several times. I picked up a rare mint condition Czech 91/38 that started life as a Hex receiver model 91 for the Czar (still has the crest), arsenal rebuild to a 91/30, supplied to the Czechs as a satellite state, then cut to a carbine.
The tang date on the Hex receiver Mosins is important, it's the legal date of manufacture for the rifle, not the re-arsenal date on the barrel.
Here's some links for disassembly of the rifle and bolt with pics, the Mosin tool is a "must have" for proper adjustment of firing pin protrusion. It looks complicated, but once you have it apart, you'll see it was made robust and simple so that uneducated peasant farmers could maintain their rifles.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianm...mbly/index.asp

http://www.surplusrifle.com/finnishm...mbly/index.asp

[Jim K]

A small point, the SA means "SOUMEN ARMEIJA" or Finnish Army, not "State Arsenal".

Jim

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Be VERY careful removing the barrel/ hand guard bands - they are easily broken on older pieces and it is very difficult to find replacements.

A real good word of advice there! That's what I was looking at the other night on it and somewhat thinking the same thing...thinking I sure don't want to mess those up in any way. I do appreciate the heads up on that one.

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by Jim K

A small point, the SA means "SOUMEN ARMEIJA" or Finnish Army, not "State Arsenal".

Jim

Thank you for that, may be a "small point" but something one needs to know when your getting and wanting to get right to the point as I do on every tid-bit of info on any gun I "mess" with. I take all information I can get on every gun I work on or repair and keep it stored on disk for future reference so there is absolutly no doubt to any and all information I have on every gun I own. And I do appriciate all you guys info on this...lets just say I'm learning alot here and not to proud to say that.

[Zane71464]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

Zane, collecting Mosins is called Mosinitus, like eating potato chips, you can't have just one. I got it bad, I recently had to buy my third gun safe just to house the Mosins.
The great thing about them is all those stamps. Once you can decode them, it can tell you the history of the rifle. So far we can tell your rifle was made for the Czar of Russia, captured by the Finns in The Winter War, re-barreled at Tikka, and back to war with the Russians that built it in WWII.
All parts matching serial numbers is a big plus, but it's unlikely that you'll find that on a Finn Capture. Check your parts (bolt, bands, magazine, etc. for arsenal stamps too. Sometimes you'll see a serial number on a part lined out and restamped, or electropenciled, these are called "forced matched", and were done at the arsenals that refurbished them.
Some of these rifles have been re-arsenaled, changed model number, and configuration several times. I picked up a rare mint condition Czech 91/38 that started life as a Hex receiver model 91 for the Czar (still has the crest), arsenal rebuild to a 91/30, supplied to the Czechs as a satellite state, then cut to a carbine.
The tang date on the Hex receiver Mosins is important, it's the legal date of manufacture for the rifle, not the re-arsenal date on the barrel.
Here's some links for disassembly of the rifle and bolt with pics, the Mosin tool is a "must have" for proper adjustment of firing pin protrusion. It looks complicated, but once you have it apart, you'll see it was made robust and simple so that uneducated peasant farmers could maintain their rifles.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianm...mbly/index.asp

http://www.surplusrifle.com/finnishm...mbly/index.asp

Well thats interesting, "Mosinitus"...good one there. But I do know what you mean as per other guns that I own. I think I more-less started with remingtons when I was just a kid, and really with no direction. Then it was S&W and right on down the line as I got older and more into it. Now I'm right into whatever happens my direction.
I want to thank you for both of those valuable sites. That just flat out is the way to go. I had the mosin nagant out the other night pondering as to where to start, went out and got a larger bench and set it up and wanted to start when I have absolutely no distrations. I'm just a novice gunsmith, well self titled anyways, but when I disassemble anything, for my own notes, I have camera ready and take pics of every part thats going to be taken off and what-not. Ive made that mistake 2 to many times. And then set for hours upon hours thinking now that part has to go back there somehow, it came off! But being a novice and a learning one at that, the camera is my best friend sometimes.
But I want to thank you for thos two sites, thats VERY valuable and I hope this evening I can start the process and with definatly take note of every mark, stamp and all else and will no doubt be back on there with ?'s!
Zane