Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... - The Firearms Forum

beachgirl · 06-29-2011, 05:09 PM

hi all, i just inherited this double barrel Sterlingworth shotgun about which i know nothing...what i have figured out so far...the numbers on a few different areas on the piece are 89901....the barrel is 28"...on the gun it reads "made by a.h.fox phila.pa U.S.A. hopefully i'll beable to add some pics i took...also, there were some engraved numbers on the wood part of gun-not sure what that's about...if anyone knows rough value...that would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks!

Jim Hauff · 06-29-2011, 05:34 PM

That's one of the older Phila. Fox pieces. Looks to be in very nice condition. Let's see what some of the guys have to say about RETAIL value.

beachgirl · 06-29-2011, 07:11 PM

thanks jim! btw...can u tell what gauge it is?

Jolly Bill · 06-30-2011, 08:20 AM

Beachgirl,

Your A. H. Fox Gun Company Sterlingworth grade shotgun with serial number 89901 is a 12 gauge and was made around 1915 in Philadelphia, PA. With 28 inch barresl it is probably choked Full choke in the left barrel and Modified choke in the right barrel.

From your pix, it looks like it has 100% case colors on the receiver and most of the blue on the barrels. To me it looks like the receiver has been re-colored and the wood looks refinished.

Fox doubles were some of the finest double barrel shotguns made in USA. They were made in 12, 16 and 20 gauge all the way from the lowest grade - STERLINGWORTH - to very high grades from around 1906 to 1929 in Philadelphia.

Hope this helps.

What do others think?

Jolly

Alpo · 06-30-2011, 09:21 AM

Jolly, how do you know it's a 12?

beachgirl · 06-30-2011, 10:42 AM

Thanks so far for all y'alls replies! i discovered a gun shop not to far from where i live so i'm going to take it there now and see what the owner has to say about it...i just want to make sure i'm getting a fair price for it...i'll let y'all know what he says...thanks!

RunningOnMT · 06-30-2011, 11:34 AM

beachgirl, don't count on the gun shop giving you a fair estimate of it's value, especially if you're trying to sell it to them.

beachgirl · 06-30-2011, 02:27 PM

Your right RunningOnMT, they only offered $500.00 That just seemed low to me so i brought it back home...Jolly Bill, you were right, it is a 12 gauge...he verified the serial # as 89901 and that's pretty much it, he didn't offer any other info. Just asked if i wanted to sell it...can anyone here tell me what a fair price would be? Thanks all!

BETH · 06-30-2011, 05:21 PM

was shotgun re-blued is that why there is that color is distorted or is it just old?

BETH · 06-30-2011, 05:22 PM

sorry i guess Bill said it was re blued

Petergunn · 06-30-2011, 05:42 PM

The case colors look too strong to be original and overall the gun looks good, but even refinished it should be a bit higher than $500. If you want to get the best out of it find a reputable expert and pay for an appraisal have the chambers and chokes measured and then hold out for a fair price.

Jolly Bill · 06-30-2011, 06:53 PM

Alpo,

On the older A. H. Fox doubles, the gauge and grade can be determined by the serial number as follows:

SN 1 to about 37,000 would be 12 gauge graded guns: grades A thru F
SN 50,000 to about 165,000 would be 12 gauge Sterlingworths
SN 200,000 to about 205,000 would be 20 gauge graded guns: grades A thru F
SN 250,000 to about 270,000 would be 20 gauge Sterlingworths
SN 300,000 to about 305,000 would be 16 gauge graded guns: grades A thru F
SN 350,000 to about 370,000 would be 16 gauge Sterlingworths
SN 400,000 to about 400,500 would be 12 gauge Single Barrel Trap guns in grades J, K, L and M.

These serial number ranges are approximate but very close.

As you can see, there are serial number ranges that no guns exist. For example, you would not find a 20 gauge A. H. Fox with serial number 245,678. Or a 12 gauge graded gun, A grade with SN 42,345 or a 16 gauge Sterlingworth with SN 389,123. It/they would not exist for a genuine A. H. Fox.

The above serial numbers would be for Fox guns made in Philadelphia by A. H. Fox Gun Co. and in Utica, NY by Savage Arms who bought out Fox in 1929.

Hope this helps.

Jolly

Alpo · 06-30-2011, 07:33 PM

So, did they make 16s at the same time as 12s, but just numbered them in a 300000 series, or did they make 12s for a while, then start making 20s at 200000, and then when they got to 300000 stop the 20s and start 16s?

Writing that question down made it seem both awful damn stupid and awful damn obvious. They musta made 'em all at the same time, but numbered 12s in the 100s, 20s in the 200s and 16s in the 300s. Weird, but I can see where it would be helpful for collectors.

Jolly Bill · 06-30-2011, 09:55 PM

Alpo,

Actually, when Fox first started making the popular and most commonly known A. H. Fox Gun Company double barrel shotguns in Philly in 1906, they were made in 12 gauge only and in grades A, B, C, D and F. (no E grade and no Sterlingworth).

Generally, around 1911, the company introduced the slightly lower grade Sterlingworth and the 16 and 20 gauges.

Ansley H. Fox made side by side doubles before that but are rarely encountered. That would be his first company: Fox Gun Company in Baltimore, Md around 1896 and then the Fox Company in Philadelpia couple years later.

His final endeavor was the more common A. H. Fox Gun Company of Philadelphia. He didn't do too well there either because he went bankrupt in 1911 and sold his company to the Godshalk's of Philly.

If anyone is interested in learning more about the A. H. Fox Gun Company, you should visit the Fox Collectors website: http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/content/

There you will see pictures of all the grades, history and about everything related to Fox guns.

Jolly

Buffalochip · 07-01-2011, 11:36 AM

If he offered you $500, you can bet the shop owner valued it at twice that amount. An expert would pretty much have to have this gun in hand to tell if and what has been refinished. The stampings are very strong, soI doubt that it was reblued and the sheen of gun oil can make a gun appear to be refinished.

Hawg · 07-01-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BETH

was shotgun re-blued is that why there is that color is distorted or is it just old?

Beth, the distorted colors on the receiver is known as color case hardening, where the outside "skin" if you will is really hard and the inside is still fairly soft metal. It turns the mottled colors from the heating/cooling and the materials used in the heating process.

Double D · 07-01-2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalochip

If he offered you $500, you can bet the shop owner valued it at twice that amount. An expert would pretty much have to have this gun in hand to tell if and what has been refinished. The stampings are very strong, soI doubt that it was reblued and the sheen of gun oil can make a gun appear to be refinished.

You must deal with some bad gun shops.

Jim Hauff · 07-01-2011, 01:26 PM

I know of no process that can "restore" THAT type case color - other than running the parts back through the carburization process - which would require complete disassembly and then treatment in a "furnace". The screws that I can see on my tiny little water powered monitor look to be unbuggered - I believe this piece is factory. I'm thinking that the RETAIL value should exceed $1200.

beachgirl · 07-01-2011, 01:54 PM

I like the way you think Jim:-) I appreciate everyone's input on this! I've decided to try and sell it for around $800.00 and see what happens...thanks again!

Jim Hauff · 07-01-2011, 03:40 PM

beachgirl,
Let us know how you make out. One suggestion: If you're willing to "settle" for $800, ask for $900 and reluctantly negotiate downwards - if necessary. You may be surprised.

BETH · 07-01-2011, 03:43 PM

ok Hawg so how do u tell if it has been re-blued?

Hawg · 07-01-2011, 03:47 PM

The edges of the lettering are still sharp. I don't believe it was reblued either. There's a little freckling which should clean up pretty easily. Beachgirl if I were you I would try to get more than 800 for it.

Alpo · 07-01-2011, 04:36 PM

I also don't think it's been refinished. As someone else said, there is only one way to refinish case-hardening, and it's quite expensive. I suppose someone might spend 600 dollars to refinish an 800 dollar gun. I might, but I'm strange. But most people won't.

beachgirl · 07-01-2011, 05:49 PM

Thanks Jim and Hawg for that advice...i'm wondering if the reason some people think it might have been refinished or re-blued is because it's in such excellent condition for such an old gun...the reason being is that it sat in my fathers closet for at least 50 years and my father, not being a hunter or some such, only took it out once to fire it...and before him, his father, also not being a hunter, rarely took it out to shoot...does that make any sense?

Sarge756 · 07-01-2011, 06:34 PM

I will jump in because I love the Sterlingworth`s.Have a 12 and 16 and wish I could find a 20 to complete the set at some reasonable figure.I agree with the assessments and advice , if that were mine I wouldn`t let it go for less than $1200 as Jim suggested..
Jim,your mention of the case hardening colors on the receiver and the only method to restore the color is to run it through the furnace is not entirely correct.In the case of the high grade doubles this is a tricky proposition as the barrels fitted to the action will be out of whack when you get it done due to the heat.Few years ago I read an entry in Gunsmith Kinks about how to do it much easier.I can`t remember which one of the four it was in but if you search the index should be able to find it.The process described uses Birchwood Casey degreaser and BC Permablue. The metal is polished to mirror finish and the degreaser is applied and the metal left wet with it. The perma blue is applied with a Q-tip and the colors that approximate case hardening will begin to appear.Just be sure not to redunk the Q-tip in the bluing after it contacts the degreaser.You will have to practice the right touch and after some practice will begin to see a pretty nice pattern.Do not rub or touch the piece with your fingers.The finish is very fragile at this point.Rinse in warm water spigot and blow dry with hair dryer. When completly dry apply a good clear lacquer such as Brownells baking lacquer.Bake in an oven at the recommended temp and time.If you find the finish too glossy you can use the matte lacquer or take the sheen off with a light touch with 0000 steel wool.If memory serves correct the contributor mentioned that this same process is used by some of the factory people at Ithaca to restore customers guns. I have tried this on several guns including a 73 Winchester and a Rolling block and got great results. The areas for this method would be those not subject to a lot of wear. Give it a try you may be surprised at the results. Joe

06-29-2011, 05:09 PM	#1
beachgirl Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 8	Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... hi all, i just inherited this double barrel Sterlingworth shotgun about which i know nothing...what i have figured out so far...the numbers on a few different areas on the piece are 89901....the barrel is 28"...on the gun it reads "made by a.h.fox phila.pa U.S.A. hopefully i'll beable to add some pics i took...also, there were some engraved numbers on the wood part of gun-not sure what that's about...if anyone knows rough value...that would be greatly appreciated... Thanks! Attached Images -->

06-29-2011, 05:34 PM	#2
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... That's one of the older Phila. Fox pieces. Looks to be in very nice condition. Let's see what some of the guys have to say about RETAIL value. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

06-29-2011, 07:11 PM	#3
beachgirl Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 8	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... thanks jim! btw...can u tell what gauge it is?

06-30-2011, 08:20 AM	#4
Jolly Bill V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 218	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Beachgirl, Your A. H. Fox Gun Company Sterlingworth grade shotgun with serial number 89901 is a 12 gauge and was made around 1915 in Philadelphia, PA. With 28 inch barresl it is probably choked Full choke in the left barrel and Modified choke in the right barrel. From your pix, it looks like it has 100% case colors on the receiver and most of the blue on the barrels. To me it looks like the receiver has been re-colored and the wood looks refinished. Fox doubles were some of the finest double barrel shotguns made in USA. They were made in 12, 16 and 20 gauge all the way from the lowest grade - STERLINGWORTH - to very high grades from around 1906 to 1929 in Philadelphia. Hope this helps. What do others think? Jolly

06-30-2011, 09:21 AM	#5
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Jolly, how do you know it's a 12? __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

06-30-2011, 10:42 AM	#6
beachgirl Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 8	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Thanks so far for all y'alls replies! i discovered a gun shop not to far from where i live so i'm going to take it there now and see what the owner has to say about it...i just want to make sure i'm getting a fair price for it...i'll let y'all know what he says...thanks!

06-30-2011, 11:34 AM	#7
RunningOnMT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Akron, Ohio Contributor Posts: 4,720	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... beachgirl, don't count on the gun shop giving you a fair estimate of it's value, especially if you're trying to sell it to them. __________________ "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

06-30-2011, 02:27 PM	#8
beachgirl Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 8	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Your right RunningOnMT, they only offered $500.00 That just seemed low to me so i brought it back home...Jolly Bill, you were right, it is a 12 gauge...he verified the serial # as 89901 and that's pretty much it, he didn't offer any other info. Just asked if i wanted to sell it...can anyone here tell me what a fair price would be? Thanks all!

06-30-2011, 05:21 PM	#9
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,676	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... was shotgun re-blued is that why there is that color is distorted or is it just old?

06-30-2011, 05:22 PM	#10
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,676	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... sorry i guess Bill said it was re blued

06-30-2011, 05:42 PM	#11
Petergunn V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: ohio's northcoast Posts: 100	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... The case colors look too strong to be original and overall the gun looks good, but even refinished it should be a bit higher than $500. If you want to get the best out of it find a reputable expert and pay for an appraisal have the chambers and chokes measured and then hold out for a fair price.

06-30-2011, 06:53 PM	#12
Jolly Bill V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 218	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Alpo, On the older A. H. Fox doubles, the gauge and grade can be determined by the serial number as follows: SN 1 to about 37,000 would be 12 gauge graded guns: grades A thru F SN 50,000 to about 165,000 would be 12 gauge Sterlingworths SN 200,000 to about 205,000 would be 20 gauge graded guns: grades A thru F SN 250,000 to about 270,000 would be 20 gauge Sterlingworths SN 300,000 to about 305,000 would be 16 gauge graded guns: grades A thru F SN 350,000 to about 370,000 would be 16 gauge Sterlingworths SN 400,000 to about 400,500 would be 12 gauge Single Barrel Trap guns in grades J, K, L and M. These serial number ranges are approximate but very close. As you can see, there are serial number ranges that no guns exist. For example, you would not find a 20 gauge A. H. Fox with serial number 245,678. Or a 12 gauge graded gun, A grade with SN 42,345 or a 16 gauge Sterlingworth with SN 389,123. It/they would not exist for a genuine A. H. Fox. The above serial numbers would be for Fox guns made in Philadelphia by A. H. Fox Gun Co. and in Utica, NY by Savage Arms who bought out Fox in 1929. Hope this helps. Jolly

06-30-2011, 07:33 PM	#13
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... So, did they make 16s at the same time as 12s, but just numbered them in a 300000 series, or did they make 12s for a while, then start making 20s at 200000, and then when they got to 300000 stop the 20s and start 16s? Writing that question down made it seem both awful damn stupid and awful damn obvious. They musta made 'em all at the same time, but numbered 12s in the 100s, 20s in the 200s and 16s in the 300s. Weird, but I can see where it would be helpful for collectors. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

06-30-2011, 09:55 PM	#14
Jolly Bill V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 218	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Alpo, Actually, when Fox first started making the popular and most commonly known A. H. Fox Gun Company double barrel shotguns in Philly in 1906, they were made in 12 gauge only and in grades A, B, C, D and F. (no E grade and no Sterlingworth). Generally, around 1911, the company introduced the slightly lower grade Sterlingworth and the 16 and 20 gauges. Ansley H. Fox made side by side doubles before that but are rarely encountered. That would be his first company: Fox Gun Company in Baltimore, Md around 1896 and then the Fox Company in Philadelpia couple years later. His final endeavor was the more common A. H. Fox Gun Company of Philadelphia. He didn't do too well there either because he went bankrupt in 1911 and sold his company to the Godshalk's of Philly. If anyone is interested in learning more about the A. H. Fox Gun Company, you should visit the Fox Collectors website: http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/content/ There you will see pictures of all the grades, history and about everything related to Fox guns. Jolly

07-01-2011, 11:36 AM	#15
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... If he offered you $500, you can bet the shop owner valued it at twice that amount. An expert would pretty much have to have this gun in hand to tell if and what has been refinished. The stampings are very strong, soI doubt that it was reblued and the sheen of gun oil can make a gun appear to be refinished.

07-01-2011, 01:26 PM	#18
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... I know of no process that can "restore" THAT type case color - other than running the parts back through the carburization process - which would require complete disassembly and then treatment in a "furnace". The screws that I can see on my tiny little water powered monitor look to be unbuggered - I believe this piece is factory. I'm thinking that the RETAIL value should exceed $1200. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

07-01-2011, 01:54 PM	#19
beachgirl Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 8	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... I like the way you think Jim:-) I appreciate everyone's input on this! I've decided to try and sell it for around $800.00 and see what happens...thanks again!

07-01-2011, 03:40 PM	#20
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... beachgirl, Let us know how you make out. One suggestion: If you're willing to "settle" for $800, ask for $900 and reluctantly negotiate downwards - if necessary. You may be surprised. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

07-01-2011, 03:43 PM	#21
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,676	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... ok Hawg so how do u tell if it has been re-blued?

07-01-2011, 03:47 PM	#22
Hawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,559	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... The edges of the lettering are still sharp. I don't believe it was reblued either. There's a little freckling which should clean up pretty easily. Beachgirl if I were you I would try to get more than 800 for it.

07-01-2011, 04:36 PM	#23
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... I also don't think it's been refinished. As someone else said, there is only one way to refinish case-hardening, and it's quite expensive. I suppose someone might spend 600 dollars to refinish an 800 dollar gun. I might, but I'm strange. But most people won't. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-01-2011, 05:49 PM	#24
beachgirl Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 8	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... Thanks Jim and Hawg for that advice...i'm wondering if the reason some people think it might have been refinished or re-blued is because it's in such excellent condition for such an old gun...the reason being is that it sat in my fathers closet for at least 50 years and my father, not being a hunter or some such, only took it out once to fire it...and before him, his father, also not being a hunter, rarely took it out to shoot...does that make any sense?

07-01-2011, 06:34 PM	#25
Sarge756 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: N.Florida Posts: 29	Re: Would so appreciate any info. on this Sterlingworth... I will jump in because I love the Sterlingworth`s.Have a 12 and 16 and wish I could find a 20 to complete the set at some reasonable figure.I agree with the assessments and advice , if that were mine I wouldn`t let it go for less than $1200 as Jim suggested.. Jim,your mention of the case hardening colors on the receiver and the only method to restore the color is to run it through the furnace is not entirely correct.In the case of the high grade doubles this is a tricky proposition as the barrels fitted to the action will be out of whack when you get it done due to the heat.Few years ago I read an entry in Gunsmith Kinks about how to do it much easier.I can`t remember which one of the four it was in but if you search the index should be able to find it.The process described uses Birchwood Casey degreaser and BC Permablue. The metal is polished to mirror finish and the degreaser is applied and the metal left wet with it. The perma blue is applied with a Q-tip and the colors that approximate case hardening will begin to appear.Just be sure not to redunk the Q-tip in the bluing after it contacts the degreaser.You will have to practice the right touch and after some practice will begin to see a pretty nice pattern.Do not rub or touch the piece with your fingers.The finish is very fragile at this point.Rinse in warm water spigot and blow dry with hair dryer. When completly dry apply a good clear lacquer such as Brownells baking lacquer.Bake in an oven at the recommended temp and time.If you find the finish too glossy you can use the matte lacquer or take the sheen off with a light touch with 0000 steel wool.If memory serves correct the contributor mentioned that this same process is used by some of the factory people at Ithaca to restore customers guns. I have tried this on several guns including a 73 Winchester and a Rolling block and got great results. The areas for this method would be those not subject to a lot of wear. Give it a try you may be surprised at the results. Joe