Grandpas old gun

[mikeedaboza]

Wondering about the particulars of this old rifle. If anyone has knowledge of this gun I would appreciate it. Details : "Hopkins and Allen Arms co Norwich Conn USA" stamped on top of the chamber, bolt action, military appearance, wood stock extends to within 4 inches of end of barrel, gun is 50 inches overall, serial #6036 with a letter A in fancy script following, has bayonet mount, has three shoulder strap hoops, loads from top with clip under in front of trigger (looks like approx 5 rounds).
Story goes that Grandpa brought it back from Europe after serving in the army in WW2, but from reading some web sites about the manufacturer im beginning to think the tale may have been misconstrued. I love it as a wall hanger but I would like to know as much about it as possible so as to be able to accurately describe its history. Im curious to know if it was sold in Europe.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks

[Xracer]

Hi Mike.....welcome to TFF.

What you may have is the H&A "Scout Military Rifle" or the "Military Rifle".

Can you post some pictures of it? Full length, right & left sides?

[b.goforth]

what caliber is this rifle. is it a 22 rimfire or a centerfire caliber. H&A did have a contract to furnish rifles to the belgium government before or during wwI. they defaulted on the contract due to difficulties in meeting the belgium military spectfications and were forced into bankruptcy because of it. marlin purchased the factory and the contract was taken over by someone else. I would like to say remington but i am just not sure.

if this rifle is one of the H&A's manufactured under this contract and still in its original configuration it would be very disirealble to a collector of mititary rifles.

if it is one of the 22 rimfire boys target rifles H&A are supposed to have made call "H&A Boy Scout Model" it would also be very desireable to a collector of this type rifle. as xracer said we need pictures?
bill

[mikeedaboza]

Thanks for the response guys. I dont know what caliber it is but i took some pictures of it so maybe that will help.

[Xracer]

If the caliber's not marked on the rifle, maybe you can take a set of calipers and measure the bore diameter.

It looks a little bit like the Remington-Lee M1882 Magazine rifle, but the magazine is a bit different. http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/de...tonleearmy9535

http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/ec405/chineselee.html

Here's the Argentine M1891 Mauser. Magazine looks the same, but the rifle's shorter and has fewer barrel bands: http://www.surplusrifle.com/argentine1891/index.asp

I've looked all through Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and don't find anything like in there.....

Looks like this might one of those Belgian contract rifles that Bill mentioned, but I just don't know. Maybe Bill can tell you.

[Bindernut]

It's a Mauser action with the Mannlicher-style single stack magazine. With Hopkins and Allen markings, it would be a contract 1889 Belgian. H&A made these under contract for Belgium before the US entry into WWI so the story that it came from Europe is entirely possible. Caliber should be 7.65x53...the rifle looks to be intact (not sporterized at all) so I doubt it has been rechambered. Have a gunsmith check it out before you take it to the range if you do decide to try firing it.

Being an H&A contract rifle I think would add quite a bit to the value since production was only around 8000 or so and ceased with our entry into WWI.

[Xracer]

GREAT CATCH, Bindernut! Looks like you've nailed it!!!

http://imageevent.com/willyp/firearm...wtq9m2.tiger_s

[b.goforth]

it is a mauser designed action. i know of only two countries used this mauser action. Belgium adopted it in 1889 and it was manufactured in belgium and very small numbers in the u.s.a. for belgium. it is better known as the model 1891 argentina mauser manufactured by lowe in germany. the caliber is the same for both countries. the argentina models were imported into the u.s.a. in very large numbers in the late 1960's. i still have one i sporterized into a hunting rifle in 1968. to the best of my knowledge it is the only mauser action with a outside detachable box magazine. there were carbine version of both the belgium and argentina models, which are rarer the the rifle versions. i would think this one manufactured for the belgium government by hopkins & allen would be very desirable to a mauser military rifle collector. please do not alter it in any way. ammo for this rifle usually called the 7.65 argentine is still available but rather costly.
bill

[mikeedaboza]

thank so much for the info. I am going to have so much fun researching this rifle.

[Xracer]

I hope you'll hang on to and treasure this rifle, Mike.

Hopkins & Allen was one of America's historic arms manufacturers....tracing it's ancestry from H&A, thru Thomas K. Bacon, back to Ethan Allen in 1831.

Your rifle was one of the last firearms made by Hopkins & Allen, who went out of business in or around 1915.

[AL MOUNT]

Can you imagine trying to do the "Manual of Arms" with that long dude....

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by Xracer

I hope you'll hang on to and treasure this rifle, Mike.

Hopkins & Allen was one of America's historic arms manufacturers....tracing it's ancestry from H&A, thru Thomas K. Bacon, back to Ethan Allen in 1831.

Your rifle was one of the last firearms made by Hopkins & Allen, who went out of business in or around 1915.

Yup, Hopkins and Allen went out of business sometime in 1916-1917 over financial difficulty...some speculate this was over the Belgian contract since it was happening at the same time.
If you can scrounge up a copy of "Marlin Firearms: A History of the Guns and the Company that made them" by William S. Brophy from your local library, there is a mention of the acquisition of H&A by Marlin in 1917. It's been a couple of years since I read it though I don't remember how much info it had.

I couldn't dig up any values on the '89 contract rifles on the net, but is a definite keeper. Enjoy it!!!

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by AL MOUNT

Can you imagine trying to do the "Manual of Arms" with that long dude....

Heh...Yep. And I thought my 29" Swedes were long buggers! The 89 long rifle barrels should be 30.5". Complete with that full barrel shroud it has to be awful muzzle heavy!