New shooter, looking for a gun

[MattJ]

Hello, im a beginner shooter looking for a good new gun. im DEFINATLY not a revolver guy, and the SW99 looked nice, and ive heard reccommendations for the Springfield XD, but i am still interested in getting more opinions. im pretty sure that im going to get a 9mm, if that helps.


thanks

[JohnK3]

To beat out some of my JMB-idolizing brethren...[grin]


1911




Oh, and glocknut will probably be along later with his two cents. [grin]

[MattJ]

yes, i know all about the 1911, but its a lot pricey for my poor college means. that and ive heard from numerous people who have told me that .45 are not cheap to shoot either. I know a 9mm doesnt have much stopping power, but im more interested in learning to shoot cheaply then home defence, we have a shotgun for that. thanks for the imput though, any recommendations are appreciated

[mtnboomer]

Try Llama or Hi-Point - yea, I know, Hi-Points are as ugly as the backside of a mud fence but they're well-built and accurate.

[SouthernMoss]

If you want to shoot cheaply, get a .22 pistol. You can shoot .22s by the brick.


Welcome to TFF!

[Xracer]

Hi Matt.......welcome to TFF.

I'm with Southern Moss here. If you're a beginner pistol shooter, I'd highly recommend that you start with a .22.

I'd suggest something fairly inexpensive, but accurate, like a Ruger Mk.II, Mk.III or 22/45.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...PistolsRF.html

First off, .22s have low recoil, so you don't build in a "flinch" as you're learning to shoot......as you can with high powered pistols.

Secondly, .22 is cheap to shoot, thus encouraging you to do a lot of shooting.....and that's how your learn to shoot safely and accurately.

After you've learned to shoot a pistol accurately and safely.....then you can move on to the bigger stuff.

[MattJ]

ah, i see, so a .22? I understand that it would be A LOT cheaper to shoot a handgun with .22 cal, but wouldnt it be good to learn with some sort of recoil? A lot of the people i was talking to (Policeone.com) were saying that its best to train on a gun you are going to use, but i was going a step lower than that with a 9mm, so would it be wise to go even lower than that? i guess i should have said that i am interested in learning for the point of law enforcement down the road.

[West]

Already on the wrong path, stay away from the 9, if your already going down that path you might as well get a 22, stay with in the .40 .45 caliber range. Now you must understand guns are not cheep, in my personal opion if the gun is priced under $600 you may be making a risky investment, if you want an all out bad ass hand gun go with the H&K USP, if you absolutely don’t have to spend $500 go with the XD, DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT buy a High Point, I’m sure you can guess why their only $100, doesn’t take a genius.

[MattJ]

yeah, i was planning on not getting a highpoint. lol. but even a 9 would be the wrong way to go when i know i would someday be shooting a .40? my way of thinking about it is that it would be much more benifitual for me to shoot a lot more with a little less recoil than a lot less with a gun that i may be using later. im a college kid, so the cost of the bullets do make a large difference. also, i wouldnt be going to the academy for another 3 years, so i figure i could get a basis for shooting guns down, and when i get to the point where i can move up to a .40, i can get a gun i know i can carry, because as of right now i have NO idea where i want to go, and departments have restrictions. but yeah, i do see what you mean.

[Xracer]

Matt.....in theory, it seems to make sense to "learn on what you're going to shoot"......but would you put a "newbie" learning driver in a Corvette or a Viper?

I was a police firearms instructor for a number of years, and I'm thoroughly convinced that most cops can't shoot worth a damn because they learned to shoot with a major caliber and learned to flinch anticipating the recoil.

A little story. We had a woman who was elected to the Police Commission. A grandmother (in her '50's), 5-foot-nuthin', 110 pounds (soaking wet with lead shoes on). She wanted to learn to shoot a handgun. I asked her if she just want to learn to shoot, of if she wanted to learn to shoot right. She said "Let's do it right!"

I started her shooting my personal Ruger .22 semi-auto. We did that for about two or three months......must've had her put about 1500-2000 rounds thru it.

She then wanted to buy a carry gun, so we went out and bought her a nice little Smith 3-inch barrel Chief's Special. We started with light target loads.....a lot of 'em. A few months later we moved up to regular loads, and later, a few +Ps. After that, she wanted to try out one of my 1911s.

We took my pin gun and started on light target loads, later moved up to factory loads, and finally onto my gonzo bowling pin loads. I taught her the two handed "locked wrist, loose elbow" method. The .45 ended up over her head, but she put the rounds in the kill zone every time....and every round was right on target!

She bought a Series-70 Colt Combat Commander, and shooting full-power loads, was able to out qualify every Cop on our department.......and later became one of the 10 best bowling pin shooters in our pin league.

You've got 3 years. How you learn to shoot is up to you. You can learn to shoot a lot of different ways......to learn to shoot well, is a whole 'nother story.

[Country101]

Get a .22 and shoot often. Save your money and buy a .45 after you've learned how to shoot.

[Deputy Dawg]

Welcome to TFF, i would also recommend starting out with a 22LR pistol, it is too bad Glock does not make a 22LR pistol.

[PLINKER45]

.22cal. guns are nice: I have a beretta u22 NEOS that is an exellent shooter. If you are set on a 9mm, and it doesnt have to be something to carry, a p-series ruger would be a good choice. They usually will shoot anything you feed them.

[lonerockut]

Your post is old enough, that you may have already purchased, but I agree with learning with 22 lr, I would offer this as a thought, if you are going to a nine, why not get the cz 75 with the 22 upper, I've had first hand experience shooting the one a freind owns and am very positive about the gun, I'm told you can convert it to 9 later BUT AM NOT CERTAIN ask cz. I know you can convert the 9 or 40 to 22 but that is more money initially. There is also the 1911 with ceiner (sp?) conversions, The idea being the same firecontrols and grip and when ready, you convert up the caliber. I liked the cz 75 22 so much I bought a cz P01 for my ccw. For background I'm a 1911 lover so the long dao are hard on me but I do respect the philosophy behind them, the cz is da/sa.

[LDBennett]

The three keys to shooting well is practice, practice and more practice. Nothing is less expensive to shoot then 22LR pistols except air guns.

I suggest you go with something like a Ruger target gun or a Browning target gun. Buy the on-sale ammo and shoot lots and often. An alternative that has already been suggested is to buy a CZ in the caliber you ultimately want, and the Kadet 22LR conversion for it. This wil not be cheap but my CZ75B in 40S&W with the Kadet conversion is a real accurate pistol in 22LR and rivals my Ruger Government model for accuracy.

Years ago when I decided to become a better shot I shot at the range every week. I shot 22LR and target load 38 special. That was not enough shooting to get better! So I bought a precision pellet air gun and practiced every day in my garage (shooting into a metal pellet trap the length of my car). It took about 15 minutes each day to shoot several targets of ten bulls each, five shots each bull. It worked!

I hope you get the idea that you must shoot to get better (or learn to shoot). If the ammo is an expense problem you won't shoot. Moving up to more recoiling guns will not be a problem if you do it in steps as suggested above. Be aware that some people can never accomodate recoil at all. Wouldn't it be a shame if you turned out to be one of them. I have a friend who shot 22 and air gun shilohuete matches for years and years. He was often the club champion but he could not shoot anything in the form of a centerfire pistol without shaking and flinching anticipating the recoil. He absolutely is adverse to recoil. So start at 22, move up in calibers as your skills increase, and practice.

LDBennett

[Pistolenschutze]

Matt, I must agree with the general consensus here. If you are new to the shooting biz, the way to go is start with a .22, learn to shoot it well, then move up to a heavier, more effective self-defense caliber as your skill and confidence improve. The hidden benefit to this is that even after you move on to a good centerfire caliber, you will never be sorry you bought that .22! It's cheap to shoot (quite often, you can buy Winchester, Federal, or Remington .22LR in blocks of 500-550 rounds for $10-$12 on sale), it is not punishing to either the hand or ear, and frankly, it's just plain fun to blast away at tin cans and paper targets while improving your skills with every round you fire.

There are many excellent .22 autos (and indeed revolvers) out there, but like the rest of the guys on this board, I STRONGLY recommend you buy a high-quality firearm, not some some cheap POS. A firearm is a lifetime purchase, so don't be penny wise and pound foolish, as the saying goes. You indicated you prefer an auto pistol to a revolver. That being the case, were I you, I would consider a Ruger Mark III or 22/45 as one possibility or one of the Browning autos as another. Either is an excellent firearm and will last a lifetime. Should you change your mind and consider a revolver as a possibility, look to the Smith & Wesson line, or the less expensive, but still excellent, Taurus revolvers chambered for the .22LR.

When you get to the point of purchasing a centerfire, do your homework! Unlike some here, I like the 9mm, though I certainly don't consider it the only viable possibility. Glock, Springfield, S&W, Beretta, and a host of others make fine autos in this caliber. It all depends on what feels "right" in YOUR hand, and the use you intend for it. Try out the .40s made by any of the above gunmakers as well. My own choice, for concealed carry, is the Glock 33 or 27 (.357 Sig and .40, respectively), mostly because of their small size, coupled with their excellent reliability. A bit larger (compact size) auto you might consider is the Steyr M1. An excellent, reliable 9mm with a fine sighting system for combat shooting. Glock also makes its Model 26 in 9mm, by the way, a pistol the same size as the 33 and 27. If you only want the handgun for home-defense and range shooting, you might consider the Glock 17, a full-sized auto in 9mm. If you like the .45 ACP, check out the Glock 30 or the Glock 36. I own a 30 of these and like it.

Personally (and I know some others will disagree with me on this), stay away from the 1911 single-action autos in .45 ACP if you plan to use the weapon for licensed concealed carry. They're simply too damn heavy and bulky to carry around comfortably and concealed all day. Don't get me wrong, I love the 1911 style auto for many purposes (such as target shooting or home defense). I just don't think it makes a good carry pistol. If concealed carry is your ultimate purpose, stay with a double/single action, on one of the striker-fired actions like the Glocks or Steyr.

--Pistolenschutze

[MattJ]

Thanks again guys for the tips and advice. I have yet to get a gun (im thinking around christmas, because im not yet 21, so i think my moms going to get one for herself that i enjoy shooting...) but i will definatly try to look into the 22lr.
Im signed up for some basic lessons this coming saturday (11-19-05) and am just a little bit worried that he wont go for the .22LR idea, but we will see. but all in all, i seem to think that shooting the .22 would be a better idea, like you said, because more is better, and ammo is cheap.


as for guns, the Ruger MK is ugly , but it seems to be a great gun according to most, so thats what im leaning towards. whats the main difference between the MK I, II, and III? is one drastically better than the other, or are they just newer according to number?

thanks again for the posts

-Matt

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by MattJ

whats the main difference between the MK I, II, and III? is one drastically better than the other, or are they just newer according to number?

-Matt

The only difference, Matt, lies in when the model was first offered by Ruger. The oldest is the Mark I, the newest the Mark III model. They are all essentially the same design, but like any good firearms manufactuer, Ruger keeps trying to improve its design to make it work even better. The Mark I is now almost a collector's item if you can find one in unfired, pristine condition.

One point that should be mentioned though, about the Ruger .22 autos. They are extremely easy to take down for cleaning, but can be a pain in the butt to put back together unless you do it just like the instructions say. This involves tilting the weapon up or down at the right times during the process. It's not really a problem once you get used to it, but don't loose the manual until you are familiar with it!

--Pistolenschutze

[MattJ]

ok, i was looking at the rugers and i see a 22/45 mixed in with the MK, is the only difference the lay of the handle and less metal? (thats what it looks like to me) they also seem to be cheaper, is it still a good gun?

[Raven18940]

I think the bolt is actually the same on them. I think Ruger is just trying to get back the customers put off by the Mk II grip. I used a MK II once, seemed like a fine gun, especially for the price, but the silly grip drove me nuts. I just couldn't get used to it, maybe if I had a glock it would more natural.

[Pistolenschutze]

The only real difference between the 22/45 and the Mark series lies with the angle of the pistol butt, Matt. The Mark series uses a rather acute angle butt; i.e., it is more "swept back" toward the rear of the pistol. The 22/45 uses exactly the same (less acute) pistol butt/receiver angle as the Colt 1911 pattern .45s, and in fact, is meant to minic the 1911 (hence the "45" in the model designation). As Raven suggests, some shooters simply don't like the acute angle on the Marks, and some others like to practice with an auto that has similar ergonomics to the 1911s because they shoot and/or carry those pistols. Mechanically, there's little real difference between the Mark and the 22/45, though I am uncertain if they are dimensionally identical in all respects, that is, if all the action parts, like the bolt, etc., are interchangable. Also--and this used to be true but I am uncertain if it still is--the 22/45 was offered with a so-called "bull barrel" as an option, whereas the Mark series was not. This may or may not be true any longer. A bull barrel is simply a thicker and much heavier barrel which tends to increase accuracy and improve balance. You often see these on pistols intended more for formal target shooting than field use, though I've used mine for both.

--Pistolenschutze

[Bucky Bronco]

Dare I disagree with the consensus? M2C--Although I shot 22lr rifles as a teenager at Boy Scout camp, I never had to shoot small caliber pistols before I moved up to a .45ACP. My dear ole' Uncle Sam put a slab-sided pistol in my mitts and taught me to shoot it, tear it down, clean it, put it back together, again and again, in no time until my fingers bled--everything except sleep with it. I’d say choose a good “used” pistol that feels good in your hands, points well, and gives you a sense of control and confidence. Take lessons from your local NRA trainer so you learn basic pistol craft and SAFETY. Shoot what you can afford; if that’s 9mm--go for it. Practice—practice—practice. Shot placement is a higher priority over stopping power—always--and mindset over those two. Whatever academy you get to will want to train you their way on their pistol; so until you get there—have (safe) fun. Check into IDPA or IPSC; you can learn a lot from participating with those pistol aficionados. Bottom-line: Unless you’re my sister, IMHO you don’t need to shoot 22LR, then 38 Spec, and so on along some progressive route to caliber nirvana. With that said when I had the opportunity to buy my first pistol what did I get? Yep, you guessed it—old slab side; because I was most familiar with the one I first danced with. I even took her to the Desert Ball when everyone went 9. She served me well there too and brought me back whole. Still have her after twenty years. I still don’t sleep with her, but she’s close, mighty close at hand. Remember: The only reason to have a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle!

[MattJ]

ah i see, as of right now, the 22 is what i was leaning towards because it would be really cheap to shoot, not so much because i am afraid of flinching, but we will find that out soon enough. i have my first lesson with an NRA instructor this coming saturday, and am looking forward to it.

ah yes, and about the 22/45, im interested because the slope on the MK seemed weird to me, but like ive said, ive never shot it. it just seems like a better idea to learn on a gun with a slightly more "typical" grip. but oh well, we will see in time. Ill be sure to let everyone know how my first "consultation" goes. see ya then

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Bucky Bronco

I still don’t sleep with her, but she’s close, mighty close at hand. Remember: The only reason to have a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle!

Bucky, I even slept with mine in Viet Nam! You're right about pistols in general though. Given a choice, I'll choose a 12 gauge scattergun or a rifle over a pistol any day if I think a fight is coming. Kinda hard to conceal one of those under your shirt, however.

I agree that, with proper training, anyone with an intelligence quotient larger than his hat size can be taught to handle a handgun much larger than a .22, and to shoot it well. I still say though, that a good .22 is a fine place to start (and to come back to often) for the average recreational shooter, mostly because the only way to become proficient with any firearm, as you said, is to practice, practice, practice. A good .22 lets you do that cheaply, whereas any centerfire caliber can get expensive very, very quickly, and that tends to discourage practice. I agree with you though, that it isn't necessary to follow any progressive pattern in learning to shoot handguns. Like you, I learned handguns first on ol' slab sides, courtesy of Uncle Sugar. The only things I shot regularly as a kid were rifles and shotguns.

--Pistolenschutze

[jeep45238]

I've been shooting .22LR rifles my whole life, I'm only 21 now, but I've been shooting them, auto, bolt, and single shot, since I was about 8 or 9 years old. Recently, I got into shotgunning with a Winchester Model 12. I wanted a hand gun. I shoot much much better with a loose elbow, stiff wrist 2 handed stance than if I attempt to fight the recoil, and every shot is in the kill zone.

I did the whole "new car driver into a Corvette" thing and bought a Taurus PT140 .40 caliber. The gun is small, light, and accurate enough for a 3.25" long barrel. However, it's 10 round mag is HARD to load all the way. I'm no small guy (not a giant either) at 5' 11" and 175 pounds, and I have to either destroy my right thumb loading or rest the mag on a table to put in the 10th round, it starts getting hard around 7 or 8.

The HK USP I shot today was niiiiiice. Too rich for my blood at $675, but it held 13 in the mag, was a LOT easier to load, longer barrel, the grip filled my hand a weee bit better, and had a little bit more of a kick. However, it is NOT a carry-on-you-often gun like my Millenium Pro is.

If the price of bullets matters, get a little Ruger Mark Series or a Browning Buckmaster. You can buy 500 rounds of .22LR ammo for about $8 and go all day long. In comparison, buying in BULK FMJ range rounds for my .40 cost me $45 for 250 rounds. A standard 50 box runs in the neighborhood of $12-$15, and my 20 rounds of hydrashock costs $19.

I went with it because I only go to school part time, work full time, and I really enjoyed shooting my freind's .40, even though I could get a .45 for the same price. I also know that it has plenty of stopping power if I am ever forced to use it.




Long story short, if you're price weary, stick with a .22LR. If you're looking for a handgun with a kick, 9mm costs about $25-$30 for a 250 pack of ammo, but tack on about double what you'll pay for a .22LR for an o-k one.

The one thing that I REALLY like about Taurus: Lifetime garantee. Period. And it's not the lifetime of the original buyer either ;-). And it also didn't break my bank apart at $360 after tax.