bent 30-06 cases - The Firearms Forum

accident · 09-22-2009, 04:39 PM

First,ijust started reloading so be patient.when i loaded my first 30-06 bullets,i was getting a protrusion(case pooched out at the shoulder)after seating the bullet.at first it was 2out of 3. i backed off the sizing die 1/4 turn now it happens 1 out of 10.the sizing die stops just shy of the shoulder.it's not too much lube as i have wiped it off by efore seating.i chamfered the neck slightly no change.i tried mica on the neck no change.do i need a neck sizer die? thanks for any reccomendations.

JLA · 09-22-2009, 05:21 PM

back the die out a touch more. Post a few pics of the cases.

Alpo · 09-22-2009, 05:40 PM

If the case is bulging out at the shoulder, the most likely culprit is you have your seating die set too far down. The crimp shoulder is pushing the case mouth down, and the bottom angle of the case shoulder gives.

If you have backed you die out, and it only does that on SOME cases, the most likely culprit is your cases are not all the same length. The longer ones are still getting pushed by the crimp shoulder, in the die, while the shorter ones aren't touching it.

I agree with JLA. Back you die out some more, and screw down your seating plug to make up for it.

accident · 09-22-2009, 07:13 PM

pictures are up

accident · 09-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Thanks gentlemen.I think yall have found the fix. Joe

medalguy · 09-22-2009, 09:02 PM

Here's a suggestion I have found useful for me: Once you set the seating depth, set one complete round aside to use in setting up the length next time. Just put the round into the die which should start up very high, and hand turn the die down until it just touches the shoulder of the case, and back off about 1/2 turn. This should be a good starting place.

Alpo · 09-22-2009, 10:01 PM

Notice the middle two shells are not bulged as badly as the outer two. The outer two were longer, so they were pushed farther, creating more bulge.

oldreloader · 09-22-2009, 10:21 PM

do you check your case length?

Rocket J Squirl · 09-23-2009, 01:35 AM

take all those apart and resize the cases.

WHat you need to do to stop that is place a nickel between shellholder and the bottom of the seating die.

For some strange reason the new dies are all made so if you butt the die to the shellholder, you ruin cases like are seen above.

My dies from the 60s and 70s arent like this. It was when I bought new dies, both Lee and RCBS did I start messing up the cases.

I now keep a 1955 Denver buffalo nickel in my die box, jsut to set them away apart.

Have not wrecked a case since I started doing this.

An old timer told me this, when I returned a set of 30-30 dies to the store.

LDBennett · 09-23-2009, 07:33 AM

OK, we got two opinions here:

1) Seating/crimping die setup wrong.

2) Sizing die set up wrong.

I go with number one. If the crimping die is set up to over crimp it will collapse the body of the case just as pictured. The trick is to back the seating die out a turn or two from hitting the shell holder. Then seat one bullet in one case to the correct OAL (without a crimp). Loosen up the seating die adjuster several turns so that it does not touch the bullet at all (removing it is even better). Now slowly and incrementally lower the seating die such that the crimp is made. Do not over crimp! When the crimping is done right, lock down the die in the press. Place the case with the correct OAL into the shell holder, and raise it all the way into the seating die. Slowly lower the seating adjuster until it just touches the bullet. Do a couple more and make any fine adjustment that are necessary. But do not over crimp... it collapses the body of the case just as the photos show.

Number two is not feasible for a full length sizing die. When the body of the case is in the sizing die it is constrained by the die. It starts out bigger than the die and the whole of the case is pushed into the smaller shape of the sizing die. The die will not let the shoulder collapse, at least in my experience.

Number two is feasible if you are using a neck sizing die that is too short or set up incorrectly. The shoulder can be collapsed into body if the die is not set up to neck size just short of the shoulder.

LDBennett

Alpo · 09-23-2009, 08:40 AM

In LD's instructions on how to set up the seating die, he left out one important part. If crimping with the seating die, the brass must all be the same length. If some brass is shorter than the one you set the die up with, there will be no crimp made. If some brass is longer than the one you used to set the die up, it will collapse the shoulder.

If you are shooting a bolt action, you don't need a crimp. Use your seating die just to seat the bullet.

If you are using an autoloader, you probably don't need a crimp. Again, just seat with the seating die.

If you are using a tubular magazine you will need a crimp. But, again, just seat with the seating die. Then get out your Lee Factory Crimp Die, and crimp away. Brass not all exactly the same length? The FCD doesn't care. The FCD squeezes into the side of the case, instead of pushing down on the top. It cannot bulge your shoulder.

So, spend another 20 bucks or so, and get a Lee Factory Crimp Die. You will be happy you did.

Suwannee Tim · 09-23-2009, 12:06 PM

These cases are no longer safe to fire as they will cause excessive headspace.

Alpo · 09-23-2009, 12:15 PM

Are you sure?

If you pulled the bullets, and resized them again, the bulge has got to go somewhere. The brass can't go down, so it would have to go up. When you do the upstroke, the expander ball will help to stretch the case back into spec.

If you are really worried about it, load a very light load and fireform the suckers. That should move the shoulder back where it belongs.

dsv424 · 09-23-2009, 12:48 PM

Thats right Alpo. I did the same thing to a batch of .308's and just pulled the bullets, resized them(after correcting my die set up) and it fixed the shoulder problem. They all worked just fine.

Rocket J Squirl · 09-23-2009, 05:21 PM

Like I said I had some do this. I resized, inspected, threw the lot out

accident · 09-24-2009, 08:47 AM

thanks gentlenen,i've got several things to check.starting with checking the oal on each and every one,not at random.don't they make a headspace gauge for 30-06 that you put the shell in after sizing,and gently file the excess off?my lee set came with a fcd, but using a ruger bolt action, i have not been using it.one more thing, my loaded shells that are bent, i can't get the bullet out with my "hammer type" bullet puller.seems as though i'm going to shatter the plastic if i hit it any harder.is this a sign of something? the bullet is not tight in seating.none of these questions can i find in my books.thanks again.

Alpo · 09-24-2009, 09:07 AM

That's called a "file-trim die". You don't have to do it gently. The die is surface hardened. The file won't make a mark on it. Run your case up in there and file it flush. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=759934

One reviewer said that he wore out two files on this die. He also said he trimmed "thousands of cases a year".

gdmoody · 09-24-2009, 11:41 AM

Joe, If you can't get the bullet out with the hammer, bring them with you when we go shooting on the 5th. You can stop by my house on the way home and I will use my collet bullet puller to get them out.

That is also something you might think about investing in. Here is a link to that item, you do have to buy the collets separately, for what ever caliber you want to pull. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=680804

JLA · 09-24-2009, 02:11 PM

Sorry, been out for a few days... Based on your pics it a seating die problem. Like alpo said the longer cases are the ones collapsing. I like the nickel between the die and shell holder idea. Thats a good one

Alpo · 09-24-2009, 03:26 PM

That's totally unneccessary.

Back your seating plug all the way out, until it hits the top of the die. Without putting your die in the press, run a case all the way up. While it is at the top of the stroke, start screwing the die into the press. When the crimp-shoulder touches the mouth of the case, you'll feel it. It will stop.

Back the die OUT about 1/8 turn and lock it into place. Now, leaving the die body completely alone, put a charged case in the ram, set a bullet on top and run it all the way up. Screw the seating plug down until it touches the bullet. Lower the ram a quarter inch or so and screw the plug in some. Raise the ram back up. It will seat the bullet a little. Keep doing this, screwing the seating plug in a bit at a time, until your bullet is seated to the right depth.

It's really very simple. There is no need for shims or spacers or anything else. That's why the dies come with a lock ring. Put it to where it needs to be and lock it in place.

JLA · 09-24-2009, 05:48 PM

unless of course you havent yet replaced the LEE lockrings on your dies. they always move... therefore you have to reset the die each time you remove it from the press. Save yourself the trouble and get some Hornady cross bolt lock rings... They can be had from midway, among other places im sure...

oldreloader · 09-24-2009, 07:31 PM

As for trimming cases,I parked my Herters case trimmer and am using the Lee trimmer.Works great, very inexpensive.

JLA · 09-24-2009, 10:11 PM

I too use the LEE case trimmer. Its very inexpensive and works quite well... And its waaaay easy to use. I dont think there is a way to mess up with it...

LDBennett · 09-25-2009, 04:05 AM

The hammer bullet puller needs to be hit on a very solid surface. A table top is NOT hard enough. Use a bare concrete floor that has no covering at all on it. Those pullers will take awful abuse and not break but.... Don't use any spray cleaner to clean them, especially one that uses a propellant that causes freezing temperatures. The minute that sub freezing aerosol spray reaches the puller, the puller will shatter.... Don't ask how I know that!

LDBennett

Popgunner · 09-25-2009, 04:58 PM

I've been there done that with the shoulder colapsing a little when I've been crimping a little too hard. I've always removed the de-capping pin & stem from the sizer die & run the still loaded cartridges back thru the sizer. This allows them able to be chambered & fired. I don't know if they end up a tiny bit short on headspace but they have seemed to chamber & fire normally.

09-22-2009, 04:39 PM	#1
accident V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: middle GA Posts: 364	bent 30-06 cases First,ijust started reloading so be patient.when i loaded my first 30-06 bullets,i was getting a protrusion(case pooched out at the shoulder)after seating the bullet.at first it was 2out of 3. i backed off the sizing die 1/4 turn now it happens 1 out of 10.the sizing die stops just shy of the shoulder.it's not too much lube as i have wiped it off by efore seating.i chamfered the neck slightly no change.i tried mica on the neck no change.do i need a neck sizer die? thanks for any reccomendations. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the Right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." Thomas Jefferson -->

09-22-2009, 05:21 PM	#2
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,320	Re: bent 30-06 cases back the die out a touch more. Post a few pics of the cases. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

09-22-2009, 05:40 PM	#3
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: bent 30-06 cases If the case is bulging out at the shoulder, the most likely culprit is you have your seating die set too far down. The crimp shoulder is pushing the case mouth down, and the bottom angle of the case shoulder gives. If you have backed you die out, and it only does that on SOME cases, the most likely culprit is your cases are not all the same length. The longer ones are still getting pushed by the crimp shoulder, in the die, while the shorter ones aren't touching it. I agree with JLA. Back you die out some more, and screw down your seating plug to make up for it. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-22-2009, 07:13 PM	#4
accident V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: middle GA Posts: 364	Re: bent 30-06 cases pictures are up Attached Images __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the Right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." Thomas Jefferson

09-22-2009, 07:21 PM	#5
accident V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: middle GA Posts: 364	Re: bent 30-06 cases Thanks gentlemen.I think yall have found the fix. Joe __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the Right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." Thomas Jefferson

09-22-2009, 09:02 PM	#6
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 585	Re: bent 30-06 cases Here's a suggestion I have found useful for me: Once you set the seating depth, set one complete round aside to use in setting up the length next time. Just put the round into the die which should start up very high, and hand turn the die down until it just touches the shoulder of the case, and back off about 1/2 turn. This should be a good starting place.

09-22-2009, 10:01 PM	#7
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: bent 30-06 cases Notice the middle two shells are not bulged as badly as the outer two. The outer two were longer, so they were pushed farther, creating more bulge. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-22-2009, 10:21 PM	#8
oldreloader Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Magnolia AR Posts: 15	Re: bent 30-06 cases do you check your case length?

09-23-2009, 01:35 AM	#9
Rocket J Squirl Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 418	Re: bent 30-06 cases take all those apart and resize the cases. WHat you need to do to stop that is place a nickel between shellholder and the bottom of the seating die. For some strange reason the new dies are all made so if you butt the die to the shellholder, you ruin cases like are seen above. My dies from the 60s and 70s arent like this. It was when I bought new dies, both Lee and RCBS did I start messing up the cases. I now keep a 1955 Denver buffalo nickel in my die box, jsut to set them away apart. Have not wrecked a case since I started doing this. An old timer told me this, when I returned a set of 30-30 dies to the store.

09-23-2009, 07:33 AM	#10
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,719	Re: bent 30-06 cases OK, we got two opinions here: 1) Seating/crimping die setup wrong. 2) Sizing die set up wrong. I go with number one. If the crimping die is set up to over crimp it will collapse the body of the case just as pictured. The trick is to back the seating die out a turn or two from hitting the shell holder. Then seat one bullet in one case to the correct OAL (without a crimp). Loosen up the seating die adjuster several turns so that it does not touch the bullet at all (removing it is even better). Now slowly and incrementally lower the seating die such that the crimp is made. Do not over crimp! When the crimping is done right, lock down the die in the press. Place the case with the correct OAL into the shell holder, and raise it all the way into the seating die. Slowly lower the seating adjuster until it just touches the bullet. Do a couple more and make any fine adjustment that are necessary. But do not over crimp... it collapses the body of the case just as the photos show. Number two is not feasible for a full length sizing die. When the body of the case is in the sizing die it is constrained by the die. It starts out bigger than the die and the whole of the case is pushed into the smaller shape of the sizing die. The die will not let the shoulder collapse, at least in my experience. Number two is feasible if you are using a neck sizing die that is too short or set up incorrectly. The shoulder can be collapsed into body if the die is not set up to neck size just short of the shoulder. LDBennett

09-23-2009, 08:40 AM	#11
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: bent 30-06 cases In LD's instructions on how to set up the seating die, he left out one important part. If crimping with the seating die, the brass must all be the same length. If some brass is shorter than the one you set the die up with, there will be no crimp made. If some brass is longer than the one you used to set the die up, it will collapse the shoulder. If you are shooting a bolt action, you don't need a crimp. Use your seating die just to seat the bullet. If you are using an autoloader, you probably don't need a crimp. Again, just seat with the seating die. If you are using a tubular magazine you will need a crimp. But, again, just seat with the seating die. Then get out your Lee Factory Crimp Die, and crimp away. Brass not all exactly the same length? The FCD doesn't care. The FCD squeezes into the side of the case, instead of pushing down on the top. It cannot bulge your shoulder. So, spend another 20 bucks or so, and get a Lee Factory Crimp Die. You will be happy you did. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-23-2009, 12:06 PM	#12
Suwannee Tim Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,227	Re: bent 30-06 cases These cases are no longer safe to fire as they will cause excessive headspace.

09-23-2009, 12:15 PM	#13
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: bent 30-06 cases Are you sure? If you pulled the bullets, and resized them again, the bulge has got to go somewhere. The brass can't go down, so it would have to go up. When you do the upstroke, the expander ball will help to stretch the case back into spec. If you are really worried about it, load a very light load and fireform the suckers. That should move the shoulder back where it belongs. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-23-2009, 12:48 PM	#14
dsv424 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Garland, Tx. Posts: 279	Re: bent 30-06 cases Thats right Alpo. I did the same thing to a batch of .308's and just pulled the bullets, resized them(after correcting my die set up) and it fixed the shoulder problem. They all worked just fine.

09-23-2009, 05:21 PM	#15
Rocket J Squirl Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 418	Re: bent 30-06 cases Like I said I had some do this. I resized, inspected, threw the lot out

09-24-2009, 08:47 AM	#16
accident V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: middle GA Posts: 364	Re: bent 30-06 cases thanks gentlenen,i've got several things to check.starting with checking the oal on each and every one,not at random.don't they make a headspace gauge for 30-06 that you put the shell in after sizing,and gently file the excess off?my lee set came with a fcd, but using a ruger bolt action, i have not been using it.one more thing, my loaded shells that are bent, i can't get the bullet out with my "hammer type" bullet puller.seems as though i'm going to shatter the plastic if i hit it any harder.is this a sign of something? the bullet is not tight in seating.none of these questions can i find in my books.thanks again. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the Right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." Thomas Jefferson

09-24-2009, 09:07 AM	#17
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: bent 30-06 cases That's called a "file-trim die". You don't have to do it gently. The die is surface hardened. The file won't make a mark on it. Run your case up in there and file it flush. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=759934 One reviewer said that he wore out two files on this die. He also said he trimmed "thousands of cases a year". __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-24-2009, 11:41 AM	#18
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,358	Re: bent 30-06 cases Joe, If you can't get the bullet out with the hammer, bring them with you when we go shooting on the 5th. You can stop by my house on the way home and I will use my collet bullet puller to get them out. That is also something you might think about investing in. Here is a link to that item, you do have to buy the collets separately, for what ever caliber you want to pull. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=680804 __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

09-24-2009, 02:11 PM	#19
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,320	Re: bent 30-06 cases Sorry, been out for a few days... Based on your pics it a seating die problem. Like alpo said the longer cases are the ones collapsing. I like the nickel between the die and shell holder idea. Thats a good one __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

09-24-2009, 03:26 PM	#20
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: bent 30-06 cases That's totally unneccessary. Back your seating plug all the way out, until it hits the top of the die. Without putting your die in the press, run a case all the way up. While it is at the top of the stroke, start screwing the die into the press. When the crimp-shoulder touches the mouth of the case, you'll feel it. It will stop. Back the die OUT about 1/8 turn and lock it into place. Now, leaving the die body completely alone, put a charged case in the ram, set a bullet on top and run it all the way up. Screw the seating plug down until it touches the bullet. Lower the ram a quarter inch or so and screw the plug in some. Raise the ram back up. It will seat the bullet a little. Keep doing this, screwing the seating plug in a bit at a time, until your bullet is seated to the right depth. It's really very simple. There is no need for shims or spacers or anything else. That's why the dies come with a lock ring. Put it to where it needs to be and lock it in place. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

09-24-2009, 05:48 PM	#21
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,320	Re: bent 30-06 cases unless of course you havent yet replaced the LEE lockrings on your dies. they always move... therefore you have to reset the die each time you remove it from the press. Save yourself the trouble and get some Hornady cross bolt lock rings... They can be had from midway, among other places im sure... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

09-24-2009, 07:31 PM	#22
oldreloader Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Magnolia AR Posts: 15	Re: bent 30-06 cases As for trimming cases,I parked my Herters case trimmer and am using the Lee trimmer.Works great, very inexpensive. Last edited by oldreloader; 09-25-2009 at 06:42 PM..

09-24-2009, 10:11 PM	#23
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,320	Re: bent 30-06 cases I too use the LEE case trimmer. Its very inexpensive and works quite well... And its waaaay easy to use. I dont think there is a way to mess up with it... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

09-25-2009, 04:05 AM	#24
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,719	Re: bent 30-06 cases The hammer bullet puller needs to be hit on a very solid surface. A table top is NOT hard enough. Use a bare concrete floor that has no covering at all on it. Those pullers will take awful abuse and not break but.... Don't use any spray cleaner to clean them, especially one that uses a propellant that causes freezing temperatures. The minute that sub freezing aerosol spray reaches the puller, the puller will shatter.... Don't ask how I know that! LDBennett

09-25-2009, 04:58 PM	#25
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: bent 30-06 cases I've been there done that with the shoulder colapsing a little when I've been crimping a little too hard. I've always removed the de-capping pin & stem from the sizer die & run the still loaded cartridges back thru the sizer. This allows them able to be chambered & fired. I don't know if they end up a tiny bit short on headspace but they have seemed to chamber & fire normally.