Savage Sporter 23B .25/20

[CountryGunsmith]

northkind
Member
Posts: 1
(1/7/03 5:39:05 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All Savage Sporter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you can help us out. My husband has inherited a Savage Sporter 25 20 rifle and suspect it may be valuable. Its in excellent condition and would like to learn more about it. I can't seem to find any info online about it.

kdub01
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1736
(1/7/03 5:51:25 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Savage Sporter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome, Northkind -

We'll need a little more information, if you will.

Model number

First three numbers of the serial number, with the remaining numbers shown as: 123xxxx

Condition of firearm, i.e., amount of blueing left, condition of stock - gouges, nicks, cuts, scratches, etc. Most conditions are graded with a firearm in mint, factory new as 100%, no stock damage and slight blueing wear at 95%, normal blueing wear and small normal storage dings on stock at 85 - 90%. A rifle that's been well used with normal wear and tear from years of hunting will usually be in the 60% range.

Does it have a fancy grade of walnut, standard grade, or some other hardwood stained to walnut color?

Any more info you can provide will be most useful.

"Keep Off The Ridgeline"


northkind
Member
Posts: 3
(1/7/03 7:58:30 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Savage Sporter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I didn't have any luck finding a serial number. It's condition would probably be 90% or more. It's clip is missing though. Not sure about the quality of wood. Has a butt plate of indian with raised rifle "Savage Quality trade mark".
On the barrel.. "Manurfactured by Savage Arms Corp, Utica NY
patened Nov 28 1905 Sept 7 1915 Sept 4 1917 Nov 20 1917 SAVAGE SPORTER". Closer by the bolt..."25-20-SAFE". I hope this gives you enough information to go by. Look forward to hearing from you again.

kdub01
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1742
(1/7/03 10:42:58 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Savage Sporter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can find no listing for a Savage bolt action rifle chambered for the 25-20 Winchester cartridge. The earliest bolt action centerfire rifle listed is the Model 1920 which began mfg. in 1920 and ended in 1931. However, it was only chambered in .250 Savage and .300 Savage. Be aware, unless the firearm is complete in original condition the value decreases (missing magazine).

You may be able to trace the history of this particular rifle by contacting:

Mr. John Callahan
Older Savage Arms Historical Research
53 Old Quarry Rd.
Westfield, Ma. 01085

There is a small fee for the researching and providing of any found information.
"Keep Off The Ridgeline"


northkind
Member
Posts: 4
(1/7/03 11:06:58 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Thanks for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I plan to write to Mr. Callahan and appreciate your help. Do you or anyone reading this know where one might locate a magazine?

kdub01
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1747
(1/8/03 12:52:23 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Thanks for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try: www.GunParts.com

Or use the Google Search at the bottom of this forum to search for Savage Model 20 Magazine. (Providing, of course, that's the model of your rifle!)
"Keep Off The Ridgeline"


warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 5798
(1/8/03 2:44:43 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Thanks for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have contacted Mr. Callohan by phone about a 100 year old shotgun I have and found him to be friendly and well worth the time involved to communicate with him.


At one time Stevens was the largest firemars manufacuter in the world and when Savage bought them there were Stevens guns that were made with the Stevens name and the Savage name or one or the other. Might want to research this as a Stevens if the Savage route does not turn up anything.


Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.

Xracer
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3465
(1/8/03 8:47:24 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Thanks for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Northkind.....welcome to TFF.

I believe that your Savage Sporter is the Model 23B. Bolt-action, 5-shot box magazine. Made in .25-20 from 1923 to 1942.

Value:

80% = $90
90% = 100
95% = 110
98% = 140

You can get a magazine here for $32.00: www.dktcoltd.com/gun_maga..._clips.htm

Edited by: Xracer at: 1/8/03 9:03:18 am

northkind
Member
Posts: 5
(1/11/03 5:46:02 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Thanks for your help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to the fellows of the TFF Staff. I just thought I would check back on my message...only to find you've provided more help and the exact answer to my question. That is wonderful. I sure do appreciate it. Thanks again!!!

[Ron S.]

Appears that you have been able to get lots of help in the research of your Savage Sporter 23B. I have a 23A Sporter (22 cal.), and found the evasive serial number on my rifle stamped on the stock under the butt plate. Hope this helps you. Ron

[william j kraynick]

if you are intrested in selling the savage 23 b i would like to purchase it my father had one and my brother sold it contact me at willy816@comcast.net

[Joanne]

I have inherited a Savage Sporter that was my father's. It sounds similar to the one described earlier as to dates and markings, but on this one it is identified as 32-20-SAFE (instead of 25-20-SAFE). The magazine says 25-20 or 32-20 (both written just like that). The serial number under the butt plate is 32493. Can anyone tell me any more about this gun? My 12 year old son has discovered target shooting and he seems to have my dad's "deadeye shot". Can I still buy appropriate ammo for this gun and is it safe? My dad was born in 1925 and was the last of six boys who may have used it before him. It has a good amount of wear but appears in pretty good shape. Thanks

[mark clark]

I inherited a model 23B fro my grandfather. The gun is drilled and tapped on the receiver for what I was told by a local gunsmith for a peep sight. I would appreciate any information concerning where I might find a Savage peep sight to put on the gun. So far, I have turned up nothing.

[flintlock]

I've had a Savage 23b in 25-20 for years, it's a great little rifle, and accurate as it can be. Would like to find one in 32-20!

[TreyW]

I have been trying to find the worth of my Savage Sporty for a long time now and the post here have helped some what.
I found this riffle in a remote village in Alaska and it's been well used. The butt has a hand-made 1.5" wooden extension nailed into it so I'm sure that kills the value from what I read. I have no idea what "bluing" is so I can't tell you much about that but the riffling looks good. I'm not a gun person...

The clip says Savage Sporter 25-20 or 32-20 in great working condition.
To the right of the bolt action is the numbers 99717
On top of the barrel is written:
Savage Sporter manufactured by savage arms corp. UTICA, NY USA
Patented Nov. 28 1905 Sep.7 1915 Sep. 4 1917 Nov. 20 1917

These are all the writings I can find. I have taken it to 2 local gun shops and neither can find it in their books but it always gets lots of attention. And I'm getting the same answer to my question of "Whats it worth?"... "I'll give ya $50 buck for it."

Can you help me out at all? I can always send pictures if that helps.

Thanks in advance

Trey in Alaska

[armedandsafe]

To answer a couple of questions brought up here, the 25-20 and 32-20 use the same case, so the magazine will work for either, as indicated on the side of the magazine. Both 25-20 and 32-20 ammo is available commercially, but is hard to find in shops and is expensive. Prices on Savage rifles are pretty much dependant on the area you are in. Some areas of the country like Savages, others, don't respect them.

Trey, I knew a fellow in Alaska, briefly in the middle to late 60s, who worked for RCA, He was a Jr. and named his son the same, and callled him Trey. Unfortunately, it has been so long that I am not calling his name back to mind. Just curious.

Pops

[TreyW]

Thanks for the information about the riffle. Is there a way to find out what model it is and when is was made? The gun shops I have visited can not find it in any of their books and I obviously can't find it on line...

Well I am the 3rd and why I'm named Trey but I'm not the same guy. My father has never lived here in Alaska or worked for RCA. My family and I came here in 1991 via USAF after serving in Desert Shield/Storm.

Thanks

Trey

[armedandsafe]

Just thought the coincidence was too much to ignore. Thanks for the response.

Pops

[fmacsin1]

I also have a Savage Sporter .32-20 rifle that has been in my family for a long time. My father used it for his first hunting rifle as a kid and I was given this gun as my first hunting rifle when I was ten. It has taken down many a whitetail deer. It has been very well taken care of, still has good blueing on it, has a great little peep scope, still has the clip and the stock is really in good shape. I would, however, like to know it's worth. It is probably at least 80 yrs. old or more. Thanks for any information anyone might be able to provide!

[metalrat4225]

I have a Savage 23B in 25-20 I bought 20 years ago, it had a Field scope mount and though the bore was good, it had pitting in the chamber. Had it reamed out to a 'improved' 25-20 and it shoots very well!. 60gn at 2400fps, 75gn at 2100 and 87 at 2000fps. I usually resize new 32-20 cases as they are cheaper and easier to get? It has accounted for numerous vermin, plus feral goats, pigs, foxes and lots of rabbits. I have no mag so can load the projies out to 'just' off the rifling, accuracy is excellent and the first shot usually goes right where it is aimed!.

[armedandsafe]

Metalrat, a couple of things to keep in mind on that "Improved" 25-20

32-20 and 25-20 brass is relatively thin. Watch for pressure signs at the base, near the rim when loading things upward.

32-20 brass necked down to 25-20 will have a thicker neck than was originally intended. This almost never causes a problem, unless your brass stretches out to an interference fit in the chamber. Rare, but it has happened twice that I'm aware of.

There is still some old 32-20 and 25-20 brass floating about that is balloon head. If you are using only new brass, you are just fine. If buying from an unknown source, check the heads carefully. The balloon heads will not take modern pressures. They were intended only for the black powder loads.

Last item: Welcome to the forum.

Pops

[PetahW]

Savage made an entire line of the Model 23 rifles, which are basically utility rimfires.

The M23A = .22lr (1923-33)
The M23AA = .22lr speedlock/checkered (1933-42)
The M23B = .25.20 (1923-42)
The M23C = .32.20 (1923-42)
The M23D = .22 Hornet (1933-47)

Their values are also similar, being in the $400 +/- for 100% condition, down to $100 for one in 60% original condition.

.

[BillyP.]

I bought a Savage Sporter in .25-20 not all that long ago. I am very impressed with its accuracy. I plan to reload for it and have gotten most of the components needed. I plan to use Herc 2400 under a 60 gr softpoint. Has anyone else loaded using Herc 2400 over heavier bullets for the .25-20? I see several people wondering how much their sporters are worth. Most gun shops here will give you next to nothing, yet turn around and sell them for hundreds. I think they all have value, no matter what condition. I have seen them sold for almost $500. After seeing its accuracy, energy delivered, and examining recovered bullets, I wouldn't let mine go for any price. I know they are simple, no frills rifle, yet in my opinion that is what makes them a great collectable/ shooter.

[Geoffrey B. Barker]

Hello. I just registered to this TFF due to the interest I have in the subject matter I occassionallly see here. I also have a savage 23B. Bought it a year ago from a gun-guy who needed the money to buy a 41 mag revolver for deer. So now his Uncle Charlies rifle is with me in a good long term home. Bear with me as I hope to help / need help.

Mine is about 80% and cleaned up real nice. Seriel # 563XX. Year made I don't know. This seriel # is on the round receiver right side between bolt slot and the chamber opening. Ref a earlier post, a number on the stock should match the receivers # but that stock number is not a guns legitimate seriel number. Now I just pulled off the buttplate and the stock butt and steel buttplate are stamped 55472 which is about 170 numbers after the receivers serial number!! --- DOES ANYONE know if savage could have made up stocks and later mounted to receivers with different numbers or could this be an after leaving factory swapout??

The buttplate is smooth steel with a neat oval logo in middle of indian chief holding a rifle with words Savage, Quality, and Trade Mark in it. this is just to neat looking to be a repro.

The walnut stock has the schenapel (spell) foreend.

The clip is intact and orig. Marked on right side SAVAGE SPORTER and below it 25-20 OR 32-20. This clip protruds about 9/16" below bottom of trigger guard. Clip has about 1/2" stipplinging or dimples each side at base. (CAUTION - several years ago I bought 2 repro savage 23D 22 Hornet clips from Numrich/Gun Parts and both were imports and failed to feed without aggressive bending of springs to give "nose-up" cartridge force) The clip limits cart OAL to 1.60" or so so we are stuck with the short nosed bullets if clip feed is desired vs using the sleek pointed buillets for the other 25's. The orig clip is removed by pushing into the action and also pushing forward to clear the aft mounted clip lip There is no external lever or conventional release.

Sights - beaded blade front dovetailed mounted to a screwed-to-barrel ramp.
Rear sight missing and dovetail slot neatly filled in with lead. Anyone have/know of an orig rear sight for sale? I was told the early 99's were the same rear sight.

This has a nifty but unmarked receiver sight on the left side. Mounted with two screws just behind and below the 25-20 stamping.

Also mounted is a 3/4" black on brass tube scope that is unmarked. OAL 15 1/4". Might be 4X or so. No el/wind adj on scope body. Mount is marked WARDS TELESCOPE SIGHT MODEL 10 in 3 lines and has a lever to adjust vertical to clear the barrel sights as well as remove from gun as desired. Mount also has the el/wind adj external knobs on front mount ring. This mount sits in a dovetailed NEWTON marked base that is screwed to receiver. Taken together, the system looks real classy for an up to 100 yd or so rifle. ANYONE know what this scope system could be?

Value? Irrelevant!. These old guns need good homes and want to be shot.
Being a handloader thats whats coming up. This is the .25-20 which is the .25WCF, thanks to the CAS we have lots of products to choose from to handload with. Anyone know the twist rate or know of whether I should use cast or factory jacketed bullets as a starting point top get going?

Thanks

Jeff

[steve99f]

These are good rifle buys if you want a 25-20 or 32-20 chambered rifle. Generally accurate with factory ammo. I have a 23B and love it.

As far as is known the stocks were not specifically numbered to the rifle as was done with the Savage 1899's and 99's. This is true for the Model 20 as well. The wood to metal fit wasn't as critical in the bolt guns presumably.

Your butt plate and stock sound correct from your description. you magazine description indicates an earlier design. Later 23B and C have a mag that is rectangular in cross-section without the cheese grater.

The scope mount may be a Mossberg.

The rifle uses the bolt handle and one other lug for locking. And it a rear lock design. You'll get headspace problems by trying to make the 25-20 more than it is. YMMV.

[RJay]

Old posts never die, They just keep going and going, just like that Pink Energizer bunny

[Geoffrey B. Barker]

Thanks steve99f

At home is a 1970's or so reprint of the Stoeger publication from 1939 that later became the Shooters Bible series. Therein I will look for the non-stnd sight manuf. and may find Mossberg. Mossberg did outfit their 22's with glass so maybe thats a good lead. Said pub has lots of Lyman and Marbles stuff ETC. and is a joy to use as research and in the gunshow backpack.

Located a proper rear sight from an older gunsmith in Freeport Me. and sent payment today. He asked if it was the straight dovetail (it is) or if D.T. and one or two screws aft of the D.T so maybe he knows of variations. Someone told me it used the Savage 99 rear sight.

I enjoy casting wheelwts for all my classics and was gonna tool up for the 25-20 with a Lyman cast system, but perhaps will start with the 60 gr SPFN factory bullet in a handload from Hornady and see how it groups. have lots of recipes from NRA and Handloader/ Rifle etc. Any idea of the twist rate? (Or i'll get the borebrush, cleaning rod, and measuring stick out) Is fast enough for the longer 86 gr bullets?

I see this cart as the "first dedicated varmint" cart and apply as a up-to-100 yd chuck and crow gun.
Thanks

Jeff

[steve99f]

Jeff, those old pubs are a great resource if you have old guns you like to shoot. I have a couple of beat up Stoegers myself.

I've shot jacketed and cast 85/86 grain bullets with pretty good accuracy. The 60 gr Hornady shot well using IMR 4227 and IMR 4198. Under 1 inch at 50 yards. The factory rounds shoot very well too. According to the Speer Manual the 25-20 has a twist rate of 1 in 14 inches.

[Geoffrey B. Barker]

Steve - Thanks on the data. I am leaning towards the 60 gr bullet to get the vel up for varmint application and paper fun at 100 yds. That twist was probably in the Win 92?(to which this this cart was designed for) The 1:14 seems slow and may be better applied to the lighter bullets. So Ill start with the 60. Handloader has several issues that cover the 25-20 as well as a neat "bullet dia to weight to twist required" table to reference.

The castbullet idea I put down due to working with the smallish 257 bullet and cost of gas checks with unknowns of the results in my barrel. also don´t expect to use the gun that much. Its sister 23D in 22 Hornet wears a Lyman 10X target spot glass and I rate it a 150 yd pleasant chuck gun.


Jeff

[steve99f]

Jeff,

That twist is the same as used for the 250-3000Sav. It will stabilize the heavier bullets. The shorter the better though.

[Geoffrey B. Barker]

Hi Steve

I agree with you on the scope. That Stoeger 1939 reprint shows it as a Mossberg "No.RF1 Automatic Range Finder Scope Sight, 4 Power $10.45". In the deccription is "Set the camplate on top of the scope so the two horizontal wires have the objective between them, the scope is set automatically for elevation". I see two access plates on top about 2 1/2" apart but there is a convertional cross hair inside with the wards mount having the Elev and wind. adj turrets. I have no idea how the cam plates work and hope to only have to use the turrets.

My 23B is 1:14 twist based on several cleaning rod calulations. That chart I mentioned is for flat base round nose bullets. Using the chart, for .257" bullet dia and 1:14" indicates bullets should ideally be .70" to .72" OAL. Not having any 25WCF slugs here I presume the 86 gr is best (closer to this OAL bullet). I did mic a picture of a Hornady s 60 gr and I figure its about .465" OAL. If so the chart indicates a .257" slug .465" OAL is best in a 1:22" twist. I believe the pros would say the 1:14 would overstabilize but be OK as at the low vel of the cart the slug should not "fly apart". Bullets longer / heavier than .72" would start to be "inaccurate" due to understab in the 1:14". The bolt actioned 25WCF may be limited by the 86 gr being the longest avail with the other sleek bullets would be to long to fit in a magazine and / or protrude into the powder space.

Do you have the OAL specs of the 86 gr and 75 gr bullets suited for the 25WCF so I can gin up a components order?

For powder I am leaning to H4227. Hodg #26 (1992) "I think" may indicate that for a 86 gr X.Xgr H4227 is max for 1550fps in a 20" bbl. Going back to my Lyman #45 they show X.X gr I4227 for 1713 fps is the max. Both have the starting loads for load development.
An article indicates the 86 gr is capable of just under 1800 fps. As well as being capable of up to 25000psi since it was develpoed after the black powder era. The H4227 is also best for my 22 Hornet.

I look forward to shooting the .25 WCF, like the stock Hornet, at the modest but adequate vels it was designed for.

Jeff

[steve99f]

Hi Jeff,

I don't have OAL numbers specific to the 25-20. I do have a sheet for those 257 bullets I have or had. PM me your email and I'll send it to you. The Hornady 60 grainer measured 0.52 inches nominal.

There is a formula for figuring out twist rate based on caliber, Greenhill's formula. Google that, you should find it.