Walther ppk and Luger value help?

[Boyle]

Any info I can get would be great. I recieved these from my grandfather who brought them back after WWII. Im not interested in getting rid of them just wondering their value. Thanks.

[Boyle]

pics

[Boyle]

more pics

[wonderwhippet]

The Luger is a mixed parts gun made up of third reich parts and pre-Nazi parts. It has a value as a shooter of around $650. Add about $200 for the holster and $175 for the extra magazine and loading tool, and you come up with a ball park value of about $1025.

The PPK appears to be a a commercial model in decent condition, possibly late war, but it's too difficult to tell from the dark blurry pictures. The value would be somewhere around $1200.

[kx1a]

Just curious abt the PPK.. Aren't crown over N proofmarks prewar??
Bill W

[SSMN]

No...Crown/N proofs continued until April !940. Then the change to Eagle/N was made. So the C/N is both prewar and wartime.

[Danny]

Wonder U R right on the money with the 1935 ppk. We need better pics of the Luger to give you an acquirement price. R the mags numbered on either weapon?
And yes Bill, the crown n was the prewar stamp.
Regards
Danny

[Danny]

Wonder U R right on the money with the 1935 ppk. however the mag with the 7.65 is war time , & will hurt the value a tad bit. We need better pics of the Luger to give you an accurate price. R the mags numbered on either weapon?
And yes Bill, the crown n was the prewar stamp.
Regards
Danny

[SSMN]

Neither mag will be factory numbered to match the PPK

Also Crown/N proofs while certainly prewar continued until April 1940 which is considered wartime...1939-1945

[Boyle]

Thanks for all the info guys, sorry the pics suck its my phone camera, only one i have. One of the Luger mags has matching numbers, one doesnt and the wood bottom one has nothing on it. The walther mags have no numbers on them.

[Danny]

That is great Boyle. Even one numbered mag with the Luger helps to increase the value.. If you could take pics of the top of the frame, that would help in judging the price. Make sure all the small parts have the same 2 digits on them. Some grips on the inside were also numbered.
David why are you saying the mags could not be numbered? He did not show the muzzle, so perhaps it is SS issued, or even better there is no pic of the front or rear sights being painted, so it could even be a Reichsbank pistol? And all the dumb things to point out, from one collector to another, about the c/n being stopped in 1940 & Bill you are correct.
Danny

[Boyle]

The top of the frame has no markings, all pieces from what I can tell have the 83 on them. Grips just have the s/42 on the inside, there is no paint on the sights only blueing.

[SSMN]

The question was "Aren't Crown over N proofmarks prewar?"
The answer is C/N proofmarks were both prewar and extended into wartime.

Reichsbank PPKs were much earlier than the serial number of this PPK. In the 766 XXX range, nearly 100,000 before this gun. This one would not have a FE numbered mag.

SS/RSHA issued guns did not start appearing with factory numbered magazines until the middle of the non-RZM muzzle marked range. The earliest known factory numbered magazine for a muzzle marked PPK is nearly 100,000 guns after this one.

Personal insults are not necessary but not unexpected.

[Danny]

With all the German, prewar & war time, pistols, any variations are expected. Thats why I wanted to ask the member this question, to be sure.
Boyle your Luger is a Mauser S 42, it should have a date on top of the receiver.
Can you email me better pics of the Luger at drbow50@yahoo.com?
Kind Regards
Danny

[wonderwhippet]

On the Luger I see Nazi era parts and a DWM toggle, making this a mixed parts gun. Even if one of the mags matches the frame, it is still a shooter and the value remains the same as I quoted previously.

[Danny]

Thanks Wonder I saw that, but whats got me is the markings before the number on the side plate & the markings on the grip strap?
Take Care
Danny

[Jim K]

I hesitate to mention this in the face of so much expertise and the statement that the Luger is an untouched bringback, but IMHO the right side of the receiver has been "cleaned" (probably on a belt sander) and the single eagle is a fake. In view of that, I would question anything about the gun, not only the DWM toggle with a "matching" number.

Jim

[RJay]

Now that you mention it, when you zoom it up to 400, it does look like a checken sitting on a nest.

[Danny]

I did not say anything about an untouched bring back. I simply said I would like to see the markings.
I tell U Jim, why don't you & SSSn meet me this coming Oct at the OK Coral. I'm Wyatt and well you know who you can be? Paint guns would be great!
Danny

[Jim K]

I don't pose as an expert on Lugers, but I have never seen a Nazi era one with ONLY the swastika proof/acceptance stamp. There are always two WaA inspection stamps. Plus RJay is right; that eagle is not right and is too small. It looks like someone engraved or pantographed it using the small barrel proof for a guide.

Jim

[valbehaved]

Jim:
You are correct.
It did not start its life as a Nazi era luger and it definitely had been reworked, most likely by Simson.
It has a Erfurt frame(as evidenced by the Gothic letter/crown stamps) and small parts(also with Erfurt proofs) and a DWM toggle, which was stamped with correct dies tp match the rest of the gun.
If one looks at the serials carefully, one would notice that the all the 3s have a flat top - and are either Erfurt or Simson style.
Simson got all of their machinery from Erfurt after the WWI and used pretty much the same dies as Erfurt did.
The eagle on the right side and above the lanyard loop got me confused too.
I think it could either be a fake or was some sort of Nazi rework proof - I am away from my reference books and cannot tell for sure without checking.

[Jim K]

I have no idea why Simson would have put out a gun without the proper stamps. I vote for a fake. I know that doesn't jibe with the WWII bringback story, but the OP's grandfather might have had more than one Luger, or he may have traded the bringback for one in (to him) better condition. I doubt anyone will ever know, but that stamp is a fake and the fact that there are "matching" numbers on parts from several sources indicates the work of a "mechanic" somewhere along the line. Also note the profile of the left front receiver side; a lot of metal has been removed.

Just FWIW, there were only three sets of Luger tooling ever made. One set was retained by DWM and ultimately was used by Mauser in the WWII era, Mauser being the corporate successor to DWM.

The second set went to the government factory at Erfurt; the German government, like the American, didn't fully trust private production of war materiel and wanted its own production facility. Hence the Springfield Armory M1911's and Erfurt Lugers. After WWI, the Erfurt tooling was bought by Simson, but the Simsons were Jewish and their factory was confiscated in the Nazi era and became part of the NSDAP consortium named after the Nazi martyr, Wilhelm Gustloff.

The third set went to Bern and was later brought back to Germany to produce the Interarms Lugers in the 1970's.

There were no other makers of original Lugers. Luger copies made in the US were investment cast and not forged and machined as were the originals. Vickers never made Lugers, they only refurbished and re-marked war surplus guns to allow the Dutch to maintain the fiction that they were not buying German guns. (The Dutch were no fools; they knew the guns were German, but PR dictated that subterfuge.)

Jim

[valbehaved]

Jim:
It is difficult to determine conclusively one way or another if this is a Nazi rework or a "basement" rework without the benefit of good pictures that show the true color of the blueing on the gun.
If the blue is period- then it is an "arsenal" Nazi rework.
If the blue is newer - then it is a fake.
However, there are a few things about this gun that make me lean towards a nazi/simson rework theory:
1.The barrel has actually an S/42 stamp under it, right above the bore diameter stamp - it is faint, but that is what it appears to be.
2.All the numbers are the same font and size, despite the fact that they came from 2 different manufacturers - Erfurt and DWM: it would be cost prohibitive for a "mechanic" to duplicate the numbers to such precision without any monetary gain involved. On the other hand the arsenal/factory would have such dies available to them.
Same goes for the Eagle/swastika proofs - they are stamped, by the way, as evidenced by the bounced stamp/double image above the lanyard loop.
Too expensive to make with absolutely no financial gain for the mechanic: it
makes no sense to make a "fake" Nazi rework with badly buffed edges and incorrect parts, as it would be worth about the same money as a "basement" rework of the same quality, but the amount of work needed to make one would be incredible.
It is also possible that this gun was first reworked by Simson as a commercial gun in the 20's and then reworked by Nazis again, when the Eagle/swastika proofs and an s-42 barrel were added
I will check my references this coming weekend, and hopefully we will be able to solve this puzzle then.

[kx1a]

Originally Posted by Danny

I did not say anything about an untouched bring back. I simply said I would like to see the markings.
I tell U Jim, why don't you & SSSn meet me this coming Oct at the OK Coral. I'm Wyatt and well you know who you can be? Paint guns would be great!
Danny

Can I watch??

[Jim K]

Somehow, my reply disappeared, so I will try again.

The eagle/swastika may well be stamped. Those stamps, along with real and fake WaA stamps were widely available several years ago and a lot of fun was had with them, like an S&W Model 39 with a WaA stamp on the slide! But compare that receiver with any good Luger and you will see my point that metal was removed.

In addition, number stamps were/are available to match the Luger stamps, so that means little. And, of course, one out of every hundred guns had parts matching any number; also, there are, or were, Luger "exchanges" where collectors could trade their mismatched parts for the "correct" ones.

The barrel may be a replacement; that eagle is the barrel proof which (like the P on US M1911A1 barrels) was put on when the barrel was proved in a fixture before installation. The gauge markings were done at the same time, the serial number later when/if the barrel was installed on a new gun. But note that the barrel eagle appears the same size as the receiver eagle; I have never seen a Nazi era Luger where that has been the case and where there have not been two WaA stamps on the receiver along with it.

Frankly, that gun is a mishmash of parts, a perfect example of a condition when "all matching parts" is deceptive, whether intentionally or not. I still vote for the basement.

Danny, the markings on the sideplate and on the takedown lever are Imperial era inspection/approval marks showing that the parts were replaced with new parts by the factory or a military arsenal and approved and numbered at that time. (Note that the "3" on the sideplate does not match the "3" on the receiver, and the "3" on the takedown lever appears to be yet a different stamp.) Just more evidence of a mishmash, though these could be "legitimate" which is why I didn't mention them.

There appears also to be several eagles overstamping one another on the rear of the grip frame; a Nazi era Luger should not have any stamping at that point. That area also shows signs of being ground down and the normal peening from the rear toggle is missing, showing the gun was not fired after the grip frame was ground down. Curiouser and curiouser!!

Sorry on the OK Corral offer; I can't afford the air fare, but maybe we could meet at a Golden Corral sometime and chow down!

Jim