CRFFL Information - The Firearms Forum

Pistolenschutze · 01-29-2006, 05:34 PM

Possibly I should have posted this in the Curio and Relics forum, so Admin people, no hard feelings if you move the thread.

I'm thinking seriously about obtaining a CRFFL, a Curio and Relics Federal Firearms Licence, but before I apply, I have some questions for those of you who either have one or know about them.

I suppose my primary question is simply, is it worth it to get the license? In other words, are there enough weapons--and opportunities to obtain them-- which may be transferred under a CRFFL to make it worth the trouble to obtain the license? I have no interest whatsoever in dealing in such weapons, which is illegal under the license anyway. My interest would center on former military weapons for my own collection and use. Also, I am interested only in shooters, not in museum quality pieces that one must handle with white gloves!

As I understand it, the general rule is that the weapon must be at least 50 years old, though I realize there are many exceptions to that basic rule. Would, for example, I be able to obtain, say, a German Mauser '98 or a Springfield '03 under such a license? If I would be limited only to non-shooters or weapons so decrepit they would be dangerous to shoot, I would not bother with the license.

Thanks for any info you folks might be able to give me.

22WRF · 01-29-2006, 05:50 PM

Have had a C&R for about 5 years At $30 for 3 years and it pays for it's self in transfer fees and shipping (I don't buy online unless the seller has an FFL and will ship USPS).
I guess I'm a collector but I buy shooters.
Recent purchases HS model B, Smith Pre-!0 Hand Ejector, Smith K22, Colt PP Target.
You buy anything on the C&R list not all are 50 Years old and anything 50 years old or older. 1899 and older and are antiques and any one can buy wihtput a FFL of any kind

Familyguy · 01-29-2006, 07:32 PM

Pistol - without a doubt worth it. When Yugo SKS's were going for $130, got mine delivered to my door for $89. My collectible (two are 'shooters') was only a few bucks more.

I've also acquired the following:
SVT40 - $450
FN49 (8mm) - $500
Star B 9mm - $150

Working on Mauser and Mosin collection, too many to list. Some shooters, some 'collectible'. The big deal is you can get them straight from distributors or out-of-state non-ffl's. Cuts down on shipping and transfer fees right off the top. A lot of the dealers have special pricing for C&R holders.

Check out Empire Arms, SOG, and Century Arms.

ksswamprat · 01-30-2006, 12:08 PM

You can also get discounts from such folks as Brownels and Numrich. It doesn't take many orders to get your $30 back.

Swamprat

polishshooter · 01-30-2006, 10:17 PM

It's worth it to simply get the license, make a zillion copies, and send one off to EVERY jobber or dealer that sells C&Rs and just wait for the catalogues and flyers to start rolling in!

Not even INCLUDING the fact you get dealer pricing and "first dibs" on anything "new" that gets imported!

A side benefit you see is on the NICS checks you go through for any "non-CR" guns you buy from a dealer, I've gotten comments like "Gee we've NEVER had one go through THAT fast!" They must cross reference or something in a database, and if you have a CRFFL it gets cleared faster, at least the ATF did SOMETHING right with the NICS!

The record keeping kind of sucks, even though I have yet to be audited, but not MUCH different than a regular FFL has to do...

And you are RIGHT, you cannot DEAL...but there is NO law against selling "any or all of your collection" "for a profit" and that's a quote.

Some of the MOST fun I had at the beginning is buying the "twofer" or even "5fer" deals some of the jobbers advertise, where you get them even cheaper, then cleaning them up, checking them out for markings, cartouches, seeing ALL the variances, then SHOOTING them, and keeping just one or two, then selling the "culls" at shows for most of the time more than you paid for the entire DEAL! The guy buying your culls benefits from YOUR cleaning off the cosmoline, your research and even your shooting experience with it too, so of COURSE you sell it at a premium. YOU bought "a pig in a poke," unseen, so YOU took the chance, and thus paid substantially LESS than that.

And there is NOTHING wrong with THAT as long as you are not in it for a "livelihood." (And your wife WILL buy the "Gee hon, I'd LOVE to give you some of the money from selling that gun to go shopping, but if I don't IMMEDIATELY dump it back into my collection I could go to JAIL!"

Pistolenschutze · 01-30-2006, 11:53 PM

Well, based on the replies, it would appear the investment would be indeed worth the trouble. Where can I get the forms to fill out and instructions for sending them? Call the ATF&E people direct, or can they be obtained online and downloaded?

LDBennett · 01-31-2006, 05:48 AM

Pistolenschutze:

I am not a collector and do not have a C&R license but I definitely see the value in C&R guns. Over the last few years I have bought several near new historical firearms at prices that would make new gun buyer scream. I got an un-issued Wather post war P1 (same as P38 but with aluminum frame--not really C&R but through a dealer that specialize in C&R), a virtually new CZ52 pistol, a Swiss K31 rifle that looks like new except for the stock, a Mosin Nagant that apears near new, a Czech marked Mauser in excelent condition. I just saw this last weekend at my dealers: NEW Yogo SKS's, unfired. The bargains in these kinds of firearms is unbelieveable. They are not junk unless you low-ball it instead of getting the top, hand selected version. A lot of these guns have come out of deep storage, compleletly covered in cosmoline. Once cleaned up many are jewels underneath the mess. I shoot them all and some are amazing accurate.

If it is this class of firearms that interest you and you plan on buying several the C&R license is the way to go. You don't have to buy the junk ones.

LDBennett

JohnK3 · 01-31-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBennett

a Swiss K31 rifle that looks like new except for the stock

This appears to be par for the course. The decscription "beaver-chewed stock" applies to almost every K31 out there. I am reliably informed it has to do with the hobnailed boots the Swiss adopted about the same time as the rifle.

Which is a shame. My K31 has a walnut stock. Will be beautiful, once I clean it up and steam out some of the dents!

inplanotx · 01-31-2006, 01:42 PM

PS, you can get the info from this old post.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...=c%26r+license

IPT

LDBennett · 01-31-2006, 04:36 PM

JohnK3:

I thought about doing the same but I decided the gun would not look authentic with a new looking stock and it would be modified and that could effect the resale value in say 25 years (??). Anyway I decided to shoot it first and then see if I still want the stock to look better. Time has all the answers!

LDBennett

JohnK3 · 01-31-2006, 08:45 PM

LDB, K31s are SO cheap these days ($89 +S&H +Transfer fee for a tack driver!) that I don't mind steaming out and cleaning a stock. Now, sanding is a different story.

Reading on a few of the Swiss Rifle forums, I'm seeing that it's very common to steam out dents and clean some of the dirt out of the stock. Doesn't seem to affect collector's value for these guys. Drilling/machining the metal, however, seems to be a big no-no unless you're using it as a base for a target/sporter.

I've not decided if I'm going to keep this one as a collectible or if I'm going to convert to a regular shooter. Its bluing could be better and the stock, while walnut, has some stains that aren't coming out with Murphy's Oil Soap and the buttplate has some rust. I may just restock this rifle in a sporter stock, put a St. Marie Graphics clamp-on scope mount and a decent piece of glass on it.

In the meantime, I've got a St. Marie clamp-on diopter set coming. We'll see how she shoots with decent sights!

LDBennett · 02-01-2006, 06:31 AM

JohnK3:

I shot my son-in-laws and it shot beter than any military gun I have ever shot. We shot that Swiss Match ammo and it must be good stuff. I am looking forward to shooting it soon!

I to have steamed stocks and sanded them down. That part I didn't mind but putting on the finish (many thin coats with steel wooling in between coats to get it looking really good) was tough as I have no patience for drying paint. It takes days and even weeks to get the stock done (one coat then wait a day, etc.). I tried polyurethane, Birchwood Casey Tung oil and a couple of other concoctions but all were long and tedious to get the grain filled properly. I'll admit the results were rewarding but too much time on one stock! But maybe I'll get inspired and get caught between other projects and take it on.

LDBennett

polishshooter · 02-01-2006, 10:09 PM

Hey you Swiss guys, have you all pulled the buttplate to find the paper that has the name and address of the Swiss militia-man that owned it? Every one I 've seen so far has had it, and MOST owners and dealers don't know about it, I've had to show a few, even though I DON'T own one yet...

Just make sure you put it BACK when you put the buttplate back on, that's HISTORY you're holding....

JohnK3 · 02-01-2006, 11:39 PM

Yesterday, my wife put a letter to Philippe Petter in Vaud Canton in the mail.

LDBennett · 02-02-2006, 10:42 AM

My Swiss name tag:

1952Sniper · 02-02-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inplanotx

PS, you can get the info from this old post.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...=c%26r+license

IPT

Warning. My post in that thread is now worthless. I had linked to a post on another board where I had written a lengthy "how-to" article on getting your C&R license. However, in the meantime, that board crashed and we had to start over. My tutorial post was erased forever. So now, the thread ID that my link points to is a totally unrelated thread that has absolutely nothing to do with the C&R license. Sorry for that.

SouthernMoss · 02-02-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952Sniper

Warning. My post in that thread is now worthless. I had linked to a post on another board where I had written a lengthy "how-to" article on getting your C&R license. However, in the meantime, that board crashed and we had to start over. My tutorial post was erased forever. So now, the thread ID that my link points to is a totally unrelated thread that has absolutely nothing to do with the C&R license. Sorry for that.

That's a shame, Sniper, because it was an excellent tutorial. Maybe you could recreate it? (hint, hint) I edited the post to remove the url since the link is no longer related.

1952Sniper · 02-02-2006, 04:54 PM

I know... I've had several requests for a re-write of my tutorial. It's on my "to do" list.

It's a LONG list...

01-29-2006, 05:34 PM	#1
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	CRFFL Information Possibly I should have posted this in the Curio and Relics forum, so Admin people, no hard feelings if you move the thread. I'm thinking seriously about obtaining a CRFFL, a Curio and Relics Federal Firearms Licence, but before I apply, I have some questions for those of you who either have one or know about them. I suppose my primary question is simply, is it worth it to get the license? In other words, are there enough weapons--and opportunities to obtain them-- which may be transferred under a CRFFL to make it worth the trouble to obtain the license? I have no interest whatsoever in dealing in such weapons, which is illegal under the license anyway. My interest would center on former military weapons for my own collection and use. Also, I am interested only in shooters, not in museum quality pieces that one must handle with white gloves! As I understand it, the general rule is that the weapon must be at least 50 years old, though I realize there are many exceptions to that basic rule. Would, for example, I be able to obtain, say, a German Mauser '98 or a Springfield '03 under such a license? If I would be limited only to non-shooters or weapons so decrepit they would be dangerous to shoot, I would not bother with the license. Thanks for any info you folks might be able to give me. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter) -->

01-29-2006, 05:50 PM	#2
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,271	Re: CRFFL Information Have had a C&R for about 5 years At $30 for 3 years and it pays for it's self in transfer fees and shipping (I don't buy online unless the seller has an FFL and will ship USPS). I guess I'm a collector but I buy shooters. Recent purchases HS model B, Smith Pre-!0 Hand Ejector, Smith K22, Colt PP Target. You buy anything on the C&R list not all are 50 Years old and anything 50 years old or older. 1899 and older and are antiques and any one can buy wihtput a FFL of any kind __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

01-29-2006, 07:32 PM	#3
Familyguy Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 40	Re: CRFFL Information Pistol - without a doubt worth it. When Yugo SKS's were going for $130, got mine delivered to my door for $89. My collectible (two are 'shooters') was only a few bucks more. I've also acquired the following: SVT40 - $450 FN49 (8mm) - $500 Star B 9mm - $150 Working on Mauser and Mosin collection, too many to list. Some shooters, some 'collectible'. The big deal is you can get them straight from distributors or out-of-state non-ffl's. Cuts down on shipping and transfer fees right off the top. A lot of the dealers have special pricing for C&R holders. Check out Empire Arms, SOG, and Century Arms.

01-30-2006, 12:08 PM	#4
ksswamprat V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 91	Re: CRFFL Information You can also get discounts from such folks as Brownels and Numrich. It doesn't take many orders to get your $30 back. Swamprat

01-30-2006, 10:17 PM	#5
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: CRFFL Information It's worth it to simply get the license, make a zillion copies, and send one off to EVERY jobber or dealer that sells C&Rs and just wait for the catalogues and flyers to start rolling in! Not even INCLUDING the fact you get dealer pricing and "first dibs" on anything "new" that gets imported! A side benefit you see is on the NICS checks you go through for any "non-CR" guns you buy from a dealer, I've gotten comments like "Gee we've NEVER had one go through THAT fast!" They must cross reference or something in a database, and if you have a CRFFL it gets cleared faster, at least the ATF did SOMETHING right with the NICS! The record keeping kind of sucks, even though I have yet to be audited, but not MUCH different than a regular FFL has to do... And you are RIGHT, you cannot DEAL...but there is NO law against selling "any or all of your collection" "for a profit" and that's a quote. Some of the MOST fun I had at the beginning is buying the "twofer" or even "5fer" deals some of the jobbers advertise, where you get them even cheaper, then cleaning them up, checking them out for markings, cartouches, seeing ALL the variances, then SHOOTING them, and keeping just one or two, then selling the "culls" at shows for most of the time more than you paid for the entire DEAL! The guy buying your culls benefits from YOUR cleaning off the cosmoline, your research and even your shooting experience with it too, so of COURSE you sell it at a premium. YOU bought "a pig in a poke," unseen, so YOU took the chance, and thus paid substantially LESS than that. And there is NOTHING wrong with THAT as long as you are not in it for a "livelihood." (And your wife WILL buy the "Gee hon, I'd LOVE to give you some of the money from selling that gun to go shopping, but if I don't IMMEDIATELY dump it back into my collection I could go to JAIL!" __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

01-30-2006, 11:53 PM	#6
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: CRFFL Information Well, based on the replies, it would appear the investment would be indeed worth the trouble. Where can I get the forms to fill out and instructions for sending them? Call the ATF&E people direct, or can they be obtained online and downloaded? __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

01-31-2006, 05:48 AM	#7
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,754	Re: CRFFL Information Pistolenschutze: I am not a collector and do not have a C&R license but I definitely see the value in C&R guns. Over the last few years I have bought several near new historical firearms at prices that would make new gun buyer scream. I got an un-issued Wather post war P1 (same as P38 but with aluminum frame--not really C&R but through a dealer that specialize in C&R), a virtually new CZ52 pistol, a Swiss K31 rifle that looks like new except for the stock, a Mosin Nagant that apears near new, a Czech marked Mauser in excelent condition. I just saw this last weekend at my dealers: NEW Yogo SKS's, unfired. The bargains in these kinds of firearms is unbelieveable. They are not junk unless you low-ball it instead of getting the top, hand selected version. A lot of these guns have come out of deep storage, compleletly covered in cosmoline. Once cleaned up many are jewels underneath the mess. I shoot them all and some are amazing accurate. If it is this class of firearms that interest you and you plan on buying several the C&R license is the way to go. You don't have to buy the junk ones. LDBennett

01-31-2006, 01:42 PM	#9
inplanotx Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 8,897	Re: CRFFL Information PS, you can get the info from this old post. http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...=c%26r+license IPT __________________

01-31-2006, 04:36 PM	#10
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,754	Re: CRFFL Information JohnK3: I thought about doing the same but I decided the gun would not look authentic with a new looking stock and it would be modified and that could effect the resale value in say 25 years (??). Anyway I decided to shoot it first and then see if I still want the stock to look better. Time has all the answers! LDBennett

01-31-2006, 08:45 PM	#11
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Re: CRFFL Information LDB, K31s are SO cheap these days ($89 +S&H +Transfer fee for a tack driver!) that I don't mind steaming out and cleaning a stock. Now, sanding is a different story. Reading on a few of the Swiss Rifle forums, I'm seeing that it's very common to steam out dents and clean some of the dirt out of the stock. Doesn't seem to affect collector's value for these guys. Drilling/machining the metal, however, seems to be a big no-no unless you're using it as a base for a target/sporter. I've not decided if I'm going to keep this one as a collectible or if I'm going to convert to a regular shooter. Its bluing could be better and the stock, while walnut, has some stains that aren't coming out with Murphy's Oil Soap and the buttplate has some rust. I may just restock this rifle in a sporter stock, put a St. Marie Graphics clamp-on scope mount and a decent piece of glass on it. In the meantime, I've got a St. Marie clamp-on diopter set coming. We'll see how she shoots with decent sights!

02-01-2006, 06:31 AM	#12
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,754	Re: CRFFL Information JohnK3: I shot my son-in-laws and it shot beter than any military gun I have ever shot. We shot that Swiss Match ammo and it must be good stuff. I am looking forward to shooting it soon! I to have steamed stocks and sanded them down. That part I didn't mind but putting on the finish (many thin coats with steel wooling in between coats to get it looking really good) was tough as I have no patience for drying paint. It takes days and even weeks to get the stock done (one coat then wait a day, etc.). I tried polyurethane, Birchwood Casey Tung oil and a couple of other concoctions but all were long and tedious to get the grain filled properly. I'll admit the results were rewarding but too much time on one stock! But maybe I'll get inspired and get caught between other projects and take it on. LDBennett

02-01-2006, 10:09 PM	#13
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: CRFFL Information Hey you Swiss guys, have you all pulled the buttplate to find the paper that has the name and address of the Swiss militia-man that owned it? Every one I 've seen so far has had it, and MOST owners and dealers don't know about it, I've had to show a few, even though I DON'T own one yet... Just make sure you put it BACK when you put the buttplate back on, that's HISTORY you're holding.... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

02-01-2006, 11:39 PM	#14
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Re: CRFFL Information Yesterday, my wife put a letter to Philippe Petter in Vaud Canton in the mail.

02-02-2006, 10:42 AM	#15
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,754	Re: CRFFL Information My Swiss name tag: Attached Images

02-02-2006, 04:54 PM	#18
1952Sniper Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 5,138	Re: CRFFL Information I know... I've had several requests for a re-write of my tutorial. It's on my "to do" list. It's a LONG list...