Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent - The Firearms Forum

1stfxst · 12-11-2009, 09:38 PM

I recieved two pistols from my wifes grandmother a few years back and was wondering if they are worth anything or if they are safe to fire. The Ivers Johnson is a .32 top break hammerless in nickle plate stamped H 29776. I also have about 30 rounds of very old ammo. the other is a D. Williamson Moores patent firearms co. It is a small brass framed 5 shot revolver that uses a copper teat fired round. Patent Jan 5, 1864. I also have 5 rounds of the original ammo. I would never consider firing the Moores but the Ivers is in pretty decent shape and might be fun if it didn't blow my hand off. The moores has very crisp engraving on the frame but some pitting on the cyl. Next pistol I want is a bulgarian makorov from the 50s or 60s. I also have a Norinco SKS in very nice original condition, Sold my Arisaka Type I for that and a Marlin 30-35 lever action. Thanks for the help

RJay · 12-12-2009, 01:01 PM

I will let Mr. Goforth answer the Iver question. In reference to the Moores Patent Firearms Co. Pocket Revolver, 30,000 revolvers were made between 1864 and 1870, as you noted, Teat fire, The cartridges a worth a few $$$ to collectors . the fire arm itself is listed at 500 in good down to 100 in poor. As a side note: Moores also made a derringer. Colt purchased Moores in 1970 and continued to manufactured the derringer, cataloging it as the Colt No# 1 Derringer. There is no record of Colt continuing any of the other Moores Firearms.

b.goforth · 12-12-2009, 04:24 PM

your iver johnson is a small frame 32 S&W second model safety automatic hammerless revolver. serial num H 29776 was manufactured in 1903. do not fire this revolver with modern ammo.

SECOND MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER
(Black Powder Cartridges)------------- -–1896-1908
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch, Hammer the Hammer action, nickel finish with blue optional, two frame sizes and three calibers. Hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 17 ¾ ounces; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall all length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Second Model features a double top post barrel latch, flat leaf hammer spring and two cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$285 60%=$150
For revolvers equipped with Bourne Knuckleduster add 100%

bill

1stfxst · 12-12-2009, 06:28 PM

Thanks for the info guys, Do you think it would be safe to fire the old ammo for the Ivers. I know it is at least40-50 years old.

RJay · 12-13-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stfxst

Thanks for the info guys, Do you think it would be safe to fire the old ammo for the Ivers. I know it is at least40-50 years old.

My lawyer does not allow me to answer questions such as that.

. Is it safe to fire with the old ammo? don't know. Your ammo is probably smokeless powder, which is not advised with these old guns. I've been told that it wont blow up on you ( but then again , the gun is over a hundred years old ), but it could very well fall apart on you. A few rounds may not hurt, just to fire it but I can't say that or tell you it's safe, your draw, just don't draw the old maid.

b.goforth · 12-13-2009, 12:15 PM

my answer is NO.
bill

Jim K · 12-13-2009, 07:04 PM

That Moore is an interesting gun because unless it is nearly perfect, it would cost more to load it than the gun is worth.

The cartridges go for around $100 each; there are two types, a flat teat and a round teat and they are not interchangeable. The earlier flat teat had a problem in that the cartridge had to be properly oriented for loading, a disadvantage if the gun had to be reloaded in a hurry or in the dark.

The guns, in average shape, sell for around $500-600.

The Moore was one of several so-called "S&W evasions." As you may know, a man named Rollin White patented a revolver with chambers that were bored straight through. S&W needed that idea for their first "tip up" revolver and bought the patent rights. For 17 years, it was impossible for anyone else to make a cylinder with straight bored chambers. But some inventors managed to get around the patent. One used a cartridge that loaded from the front of the cylinder and had a cup shaped base which was struck by a downward pointing firing pin. Another had a sliding chamber insert that was pulled forward to load the cartridge, then pushed back for firing.

The Moore was "more" successful than the others, and the guns were made for several years.

Jim

12-11-2009, 09:38 PM	#1
1stfxst Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 3	Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent I recieved two pistols from my wifes grandmother a few years back and was wondering if they are worth anything or if they are safe to fire. The Ivers Johnson is a .32 top break hammerless in nickle plate stamped H 29776. I also have about 30 rounds of very old ammo. the other is a D. Williamson Moores patent firearms co. It is a small brass framed 5 shot revolver that uses a copper teat fired round. Patent Jan 5, 1864. I also have 5 rounds of the original ammo. I would never consider firing the Moores but the Ivers is in pretty decent shape and might be fun if it didn't blow my hand off. The moores has very crisp engraving on the frame but some pitting on the cyl. Next pistol I want is a bulgarian makorov from the 50s or 60s. I also have a Norinco SKS in very nice original condition, Sold my Arisaka Type I for that and a Marlin 30-35 lever action. Thanks for the help --> Last edited by 1stfxst; 12-11-2009 at 09:39 PM..

12-12-2009, 01:01 PM	#2
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent I will let Mr. Goforth answer the Iver question. In reference to the Moores Patent Firearms Co. Pocket Revolver, 30,000 revolvers were made between 1864 and 1870, as you noted, Teat fire, The cartridges a worth a few $$$ to collectors . the fire arm itself is listed at 500 in good down to 100 in poor. As a side note: Moores also made a derringer. Colt purchased Moores in 1970 and continued to manufactured the derringer, cataloging it as the Colt No# 1 Derringer. There is no record of Colt continuing any of the other Moores Firearms. __________________ RonJames Last edited by RJay; 12-12-2009 at 01:18 PM..

12-12-2009, 04:24 PM	#3
b.goforth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: houston, tx Posts: 3,174	Re: Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent your iver johnson is a small frame 32 S&W second model safety automatic hammerless revolver. serial num H 29776 was manufactured in 1903. do not fire this revolver with modern ammo. SECOND MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER (Black Powder Cartridges)------------- -–1896-1908 LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch, Hammer the Hammer action, nickel finish with blue optional, two frame sizes and three calibers. Hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 17 ¾ ounces; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall all length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Second Model features a double top post barrel latch, flat leaf hammer spring and two cross pins in the lower frame. VALUE: 100%=$285 60%=$150 For revolvers equipped with Bourne Knuckleduster add 100% bill __________________ Author: Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works 1871-1993 H&R Arms Company 1871-1986 (due spring 2010) available from www.gunshowbooks.com website; iverjohnsoncollector.x10hosting.com

12-12-2009, 06:28 PM	#4
1stfxst Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 3	Re: Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent Thanks for the info guys, Do you think it would be safe to fire the old ammo for the Ivers. I know it is at least40-50 years old.

12-13-2009, 12:15 PM	#6
b.goforth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: houston, tx Posts: 3,174	Re: Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent my answer is NO. bill __________________ Author: Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works 1871-1993 H&R Arms Company 1871-1986 (due spring 2010) available from www.gunshowbooks.com website; iverjohnsoncollector.x10hosting.com

12-13-2009, 07:04 PM	#7
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Ivers Johnson and Moores Patent That Moore is an interesting gun because unless it is nearly perfect, it would cost more to load it than the gun is worth. The cartridges go for around $100 each; there are two types, a flat teat and a round teat and they are not interchangeable. The earlier flat teat had a problem in that the cartridge had to be properly oriented for loading, a disadvantage if the gun had to be reloaded in a hurry or in the dark. The guns, in average shape, sell for around $500-600. The Moore was one of several so-called "S&W evasions." As you may know, a man named Rollin White patented a revolver with chambers that were bored straight through. S&W needed that idea for their first "tip up" revolver and bought the patent rights. For 17 years, it was impossible for anyone else to make a cylinder with straight bored chambers. But some inventors managed to get around the patent. One used a cartridge that loaded from the front of the cylinder and had a cup shaped base which was struck by a downward pointing firing pin. Another had a sliding chamber insert that was pulled forward to load the cartridge, then pushed back for firing. The Moore was "more" successful than the others, and the guns were made for several years. Jim Last edited by Jim K; 12-13-2009 at 07:06 PM..