COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION - The Firearms Forum

AL MOUNT · 02-09-2007, 10:27 AM

Did Colt ever make an (exact copy) minature 1911 in .380 ?

If so what was the name, it's not a Pony...

Pony is DA hammerless

I think Llama did.

What is the name of it.

Pistolenschutze · 02-09-2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL MOUNT

I think Llama did.

What is the name of it.

Yes, Llama did, Al. It was called the III-A, built on a scaled-down version of the 1911 frame. I have one in fact, but it is not the best made handgun I've ever seen. Mine won't digest anything but hardball reliably.

b.goforth · 02-09-2007, 11:48 AM

colt almost made one based a the star "starfire" design. the project was cancelled at the last minute but not before it was included in the colt 1971 catalog. there were even a few complete with colt marking (probably less than 50) that were actually sold, not by colt but by firearms international corp. of washington dc. FI was involved with the project as the go between for colt and star. F.I. eventually produced the pistol as the F.I. Model D and all of F.I. models i have encountered have a serial number prefix of c.a.p. the serial number with this prefix go up as high as 40,000, but i don't think that many were actually sold. in 1978 Iver Johnson purchased the rights to this pistol. iver johnson sold the pistol as the Model X300 pony between 1978 and the 1990s. the boxes F.I. used were the same one made up for colt very similar (but smaller) to the boxes colt used for their full size government model. these boxes are brown in color with a yellow F.I. label pasted on them. there must have been a lot of these boxes because Iver Johnson also used them for thier original production in the late 1978/79. the iver johnson brown boxes will have a white label pasted on them. this is an interesting pistol and there is information on it in my new iver johnson book but i do not believe the full story is fully known even at this late date.
bill

Shooter45 · 02-09-2007, 01:02 PM

The Colt in question is the Colt Mustang. Good little pistol.

Marlin · 02-09-2007, 01:26 PM

I would love to have a Colt Mustang in good condition.

SoMo and I saw one a couple years ago that was close to NIB, but we passed it up. Wish we'd grabbed it then as we probably won't see another as good and at a reasonable price again.

Oneida Steve · 02-09-2007, 02:43 PM

Yep, Shooter45 is right. Colt Mustang .380 pistol. I've got one in nickel. Nice little gun. A local store had a blued one for sale (used) for $429. Crazy, but that's what they sell for now.

pickenup · 02-09-2007, 11:10 PM

Colt also made the...
Colt MK IV Series 80 Government Model 380.

AL MOUNT · 02-10-2007, 07:25 AM

Thanks a lot guys.....

Are the ones you mention, Mustang, I & J "pony" exact minature copies of the 1911 ?????

Bill DeShivs · 02-10-2007, 06:03 PM

Al
I'll bet you are gagging, having found out Colt was using a "junk" Star design!

The star Starfire DKL .380 was the basis for the original Pony.
None of the Colt, Star, I.J., or F.I. guns was an exact copy of the 1911. The Llama was about as close as you can get.
Bill

AL MOUNT · 02-11-2007, 07:37 AM

Thanks Bill,

The Llama thing is pretty much what I'm finding out.

Maybe I've got my old wires crossed on the Star,.....

I could have sworn that brand was bad mouthed big time on some other forum.

I could have the Star brand corn-fused with another,

Bill DeShivs · 02-11-2007, 01:42 PM

Al
The later Llamas were not as well made as the 1960s models.
Bill

southernshooter · 02-11-2007, 08:21 PM

It isn't a Colt but the newest thing I have seen is by Springfield Armoryit is called the EMP it is in 9mm. It is supposedly the worlds smallest 1911
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

Xracer · 02-13-2007, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AL MOUNT

Are the ones you mention, Mustang, I & J "pony" exact minature copies of the 1911 ?????

No they aren't.

For all intents and purposes, the Llama IIIa is an exact copy of the M1911A1 (about 2/3 scale). The only difference is the Colt has an internal extractor and the Llama has an external one. Otherwise, the Llama is a part for part copy.....just smaller.

.....and being a copy of the M1911A1, it's one of only a very few .380's that fire from a locked breech.

As for the IIIa only being able to feed and handle round-nosed bullets.....well, the knock on Llamas has always been their quality control, and certainly the machine work on the IIIa is not up to Colt standards, but it should respond to tuning the way a 1911 does. I suspect that if you carefully radius and polish the feed ramp, it should be able to feed most, if not all, .380 cartridges on the market.

Pistolenschutze · 02-13-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xracer

As for the IIIa only being able to feed and handle round-nosed bullets.....well, the knock on Llamas has always been their quality control, and certainly the machine work on the IIIa is not up to Colt standards, but it should respond to tuning the way a 1911 does. I suspect that if you carefully radius and polish the feed ramp, it should be able to feed most, if not all, .380 cartridges on the market.

Interesting, X. I would love to get my III-A to be a bit more functional. Are any special tools needed to do the ramp polishing job, or is that something an amateur might do successfully? If so, how might I go about it? The III-A I have will sometimes FTE even with ball ammo. Yet, I must admit, I like the feel of the little gun and would shoot it more if it worked properly.

Xracer · 02-14-2007, 07:34 AM

OK, PS......here you go. It's not hard, just time consuming.

First and foremost.....DO NOT USE A DREML TOOL!

The feed problems with 1911-type firearms can be the magazine, but with older GI 1911's and Llamas, it's usually the step up from the magazine feedwell into the chamber at the rear of the barrel. Roundnose usually feed fine, and anything with a flat on it often hangs up.

Tools needed.....4 to 6 inch 5/16 to 3/8 inch dowel. 200, 400, & 600 grit sandpaper or crocus cloth and a can of compressed air.

First, remove magazine, and lock the slide all the way back. With a small flashlight, look in thru the ejection port and note the relationship between the magazine feedwell and the rear of the chamber. There'll probably be quite a step there.

Field strip the gun, and pin the barrel/chamber back onto the frame. Push the barrel/chamber all the way back and down so it's in the "feed" position. Run the ball of your little finger over the magazine well to chamber interface. You should be able to feel any rough spots, "steps", or sharp or square edges. Note where these are. You want to "radius" these (remove the rough or sharp edges).

Remove the barrel/chamber from the gun. Wrap the 200 grit crocus cloth around the dowel, and very slowly and carefully start to smooth the sharp edges. Do this very slowly......remember, you can always take more metal off, but you can't add it back on!

After you've slightly rounded the worst of the steps or sharp edges, test fit the barrel to the frame and feel it with ball of your little finger. (You may also have to remove a bit of metal from the magazine feedwell.) Then go to the 400 grit and do the same......then the 600 grit.

The idea is to form a very smooth transition from the magazine feedwell into the bottom of the chamber.

It's also not a bad idea to buy a box of the ammo you want to use, and "test fit" it. Load the mag and insert it into the frame. Push the barrel/chamber all the way down & back, and try to feed a cartridge into the chamber with your thumb.

When you get it so rounds chamber well, completely disassemble the pistol, clean & lube it.

Any questions?

delta13soultaker · 02-14-2007, 08:47 PM

Just side notes...tell me if I'm wrong...

Do not change the angle of the feedramp/feedwell.

Do not eliminate the flat gap between the uppermost feedramp edge and the bottom of the chamber.

Pistolenschutze · 02-15-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xracer

OK, PS......here you go. It's not hard, just time consuming.

Thanks, X! Sounds easy enough. I am definitely going to give that a try, probably this weekend when I have time to work on it. If I have any questions, I'll drop you a note. Thanks again for the directions.

AL MOUNT · 02-15-2007, 06:01 AM

Thanks a lot guys......

I've decided to get a PTP from the Sheriff tomorrow and start to look for a Llama IIIa.

Now I know to look for an older model.

And how to polish it up.

What would be a fair/normal price if I find one?

If anyone out there in cyber space wants to unload (as in sell) ..

... theirs,

Let me know.

My plan is to put a IIIa with a 1911 in my dark gunsafe and start a breeding program....

Like the wife does with our Papillons......

.........just kidden.....

Xracer · 02-15-2007, 07:57 AM

Al....here's what the Blue Book says:

98% - $200
95% - $180
90% - $160
80% - $180
70% - $170

The price of a breeding female might be a little more.

AGB · 02-16-2007, 07:27 PM

Here in brasil we have it. It is pruduced by Imbel, but it has teh very same size of a commander colt. It does not have the locked breech system, it works on a direct blowback arrangment, like the colt ace conversion kits to be used on 1911 in .45 ACP. A decent gun, that does not like anything but round nosed ammo. Have one as my CCW, since it is the largest pistol caliber allowed for a civilian to carry. This gun is just like any colt commander sizewise.

bompa · 03-12-2007, 11:07 AM

I believe the 380 Govt model is a closer copy of its big brother the Govt model..Not too sure as I was never able to find a 380 Govt model that I could afford.,,Do have a Mustang and a Pony and like them very much..They are very comfortable shooting because of the locked breech system..

AL MOUNT · 03-12-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGB

Here in brasil we have it. It is pruduced by Imbel, but it has the very same size of a commander colt..

I was looking for an exact copy of the 1911

Appears that only a Tarus IIIA, is what I wanted and was looking for......

I have given up and am now looking for a .....

Kel-Tec PLR (pistol long range) in .223

This little guy would give the libs nightmares.......

I'm not a big fan of the "Varmit Calibers"......

I know a lot of people on this forum hunt deer with them....

I was forced to use the caliber to hunt people in Vietnam....but that is another story....

patrol · 06-10-2007, 12:42 PM

The "Exact" copy of your sought after 1911 made by "Colt" even) in the 380acp caliber are two mdls: The Colt "Mustang" Pocketlite and the Colt "Government" model pocket lite this one is an older "Mustang" and you can find them both on Auction Arms and yes they are overpriced for what they are but that's how colt's roll. Llama's in my opinion are "POS'. and have absolutely no collector value. If you want a good 380 that is reliable, cheap and the smallest they make get you a Keltec.

patrol · 06-10-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southernshooter

It isn't a Colt but the newest thing I have seen is by Springfield Armoryit is called the EMP it is in 9mm. It is supposedly the worlds smallest 1911
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

Ive read your post and respect your knowledge. Having said that just to let you know I love Springfield but they are liars about the EMP. Check out the Specs on the Para "Carry 9 and even the "Slimline Hawg" in 45ACP are both 24oz and as small. I dont know why they sell it at $1000 or more either and even GA called it the Gun of the year already even before it was released to the general public? Sounds silly to me.

patrol · 06-10-2007, 12:54 PM

Yep, just checked the EMP, correction on the GA gun of the year it was the American Rifleman gun of the year already and it is actually 2oz heavier than the two para's I mentioned that are both 1911's also.

02-09-2007, 10:27 AM	#1
AL MOUNT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cleaning my Thompson in The Foothills of the Ozark Mountains Posts: 3,130	COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Did Colt ever make an (exact copy) minature 1911 in .380 ? If so what was the name, it's not a Pony... Pony is DA hammerless I think Llama did. What is the name of it. __________________ 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division Vietnam 67-68 --> Last edited by AL MOUNT; 02-09-2007 at 10:30 AM.. Reason: Old age

02-09-2007, 11:48 AM	#3
b.goforth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: houston, tx Posts: 3,174	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION colt almost made one based a the star "starfire" design. the project was cancelled at the last minute but not before it was included in the colt 1971 catalog. there were even a few complete with colt marking (probably less than 50) that were actually sold, not by colt but by firearms international corp. of washington dc. FI was involved with the project as the go between for colt and star. F.I. eventually produced the pistol as the F.I. Model D and all of F.I. models i have encountered have a serial number prefix of c.a.p. the serial number with this prefix go up as high as 40,000, but i don't think that many were actually sold. in 1978 Iver Johnson purchased the rights to this pistol. iver johnson sold the pistol as the Model X300 pony between 1978 and the 1990s. the boxes F.I. used were the same one made up for colt very similar (but smaller) to the boxes colt used for their full size government model. these boxes are brown in color with a yellow F.I. label pasted on them. there must have been a lot of these boxes because Iver Johnson also used them for thier original production in the late 1978/79. the iver johnson brown boxes will have a white label pasted on them. this is an interesting pistol and there is information on it in my new iver johnson book but i do not believe the full story is fully known even at this late date. bill Last edited by b.goforth; 02-09-2007 at 11:52 AM..

02-09-2007, 01:02 PM	#4
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,790	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION The Colt in question is the Colt Mustang. Good little pistol.

02-09-2007, 01:26 PM	#5
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,854	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION I would love to have a Colt Mustang in good condition. SoMo and I saw one a couple years ago that was close to NIB, but we passed it up. Wish we'd grabbed it then as we probably won't see another as good and at a reasonable price again. __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

02-09-2007, 02:43 PM	#6
Oneida Steve Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,029	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Yep, Shooter45 is right. Colt Mustang .380 pistol. I've got one in nickel. Nice little gun. A local store had a blued one for sale (used) for $429. Crazy, but that's what they sell for now.

02-09-2007, 11:10 PM	#7
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,841	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Colt also made the... Colt MK IV Series 80 Government Model 380. __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

02-10-2007, 07:25 AM	#8
AL MOUNT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cleaning my Thompson in The Foothills of the Ozark Mountains Posts: 3,130	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Thanks a lot guys..... Are the ones you mention, Mustang, I & J "pony" exact minature copies of the 1911 ????? __________________ 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division Vietnam 67-68

02-10-2007, 06:03 PM	#9
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,478	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Al I'll bet you are gagging, having found out Colt was using a "junk" Star design! The star Starfire DKL .380 was the basis for the original Pony. None of the Colt, Star, I.J., or F.I. guns was an exact copy of the 1911. The Llama was about as close as you can get. Bill

02-11-2007, 07:37 AM	#10
AL MOUNT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cleaning my Thompson in The Foothills of the Ozark Mountains Posts: 3,130	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Thanks Bill, The Llama thing is pretty much what I'm finding out. Maybe I've got my old wires crossed on the Star,..... I could have sworn that brand was bad mouthed big time on some other forum. I could have the Star brand corn-fused with another, __________________ 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division Vietnam 67-68

02-11-2007, 01:42 PM	#11
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,478	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Al The later Llamas were not as well made as the 1960s models. Bill

02-11-2007, 08:21 PM	#12
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION It isn't a Colt but the newest thing I have seen is by Springfield Armoryit is called the EMP it is in 9mm. It is supposedly the worlds smallest 1911 http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24 __________________ Only you can see this

02-14-2007, 07:34 AM	#15
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION OK, PS......here you go. It's not hard, just time consuming. First and foremost.....DO NOT USE A DREML TOOL! The feed problems with 1911-type firearms can be the magazine, but with older GI 1911's and Llamas, it's usually the step up from the magazine feedwell into the chamber at the rear of the barrel. Roundnose usually feed fine, and anything with a flat on it often hangs up. Tools needed.....4 to 6 inch 5/16 to 3/8 inch dowel. 200, 400, & 600 grit sandpaper or crocus cloth and a can of compressed air. First, remove magazine, and lock the slide all the way back. With a small flashlight, look in thru the ejection port and note the relationship between the magazine feedwell and the rear of the chamber. There'll probably be quite a step there. Field strip the gun, and pin the barrel/chamber back onto the frame. Push the barrel/chamber all the way back and down so it's in the "feed" position. Run the ball of your little finger over the magazine well to chamber interface. You should be able to feel any rough spots, "steps", or sharp or square edges. Note where these are. You want to "radius" these (remove the rough or sharp edges). Remove the barrel/chamber from the gun. Wrap the 200 grit crocus cloth around the dowel, and very slowly and carefully start to smooth the sharp edges. Do this very slowly......remember, you can always take more metal off, but you can't add it back on! After you've slightly rounded the worst of the steps or sharp edges, test fit the barrel to the frame and feel it with ball of your little finger. (You may also have to remove a bit of metal from the magazine feedwell.) Then go to the 400 grit and do the same......then the 600 grit. The idea is to form a very smooth transition from the magazine feedwell into the bottom of the chamber. It's also not a bad idea to buy a box of the ammo you want to use, and "test fit" it. Load the mag and insert it into the frame. Push the barrel/chamber all the way down & back, and try to feed a cartridge into the chamber with your thumb. When you get it so rounds chamber well, completely disassemble the pistol, clean & lube it. Any questions?

02-14-2007, 08:47 PM	#16
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Just side notes...tell me if I'm wrong... Do not change the angle of the feedramp/feedwell. Do not eliminate the flat gap between the uppermost feedramp edge and the bottom of the chamber. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

02-15-2007, 06:01 AM	#18
AL MOUNT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cleaning my Thompson in The Foothills of the Ozark Mountains Posts: 3,130	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Thanks a lot guys...... I've decided to get a PTP from the Sheriff tomorrow and start to look for a Llama IIIa. Now I know to look for an older model. And how to polish it up. What would be a fair/normal price if I find one? If anyone out there in cyber space wants to unload (as in sell) ..... theirs, Let me know. My plan is to put a IIIa with a 1911 in my dark gunsafe and start a breeding program.... Like the wife does with our Papillons...... .........just kidden..... __________________ 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division Vietnam 67-68 Last edited by AL MOUNT; 02-15-2007 at 07:31 AM.. Reason: cause I'm old and forgetful

02-15-2007, 07:57 AM	#19
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Al....here's what the Blue Book says: 98% - $200 95% - $180 90% - $160 80% - $180 70% - $170 The price of a breeding female might be a little more.

02-16-2007, 07:27 PM	#20
AGB V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brasilia, DF, Brasil Posts: 144	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Here in brasil we have it. It is pruduced by Imbel, but it has teh very same size of a commander colt. It does not have the locked breech system, it works on a direct blowback arrangment, like the colt ace conversion kits to be used on 1911 in .45 ACP. A decent gun, that does not like anything but round nosed ammo. Have one as my CCW, since it is the largest pistol caliber allowed for a civilian to carry. This gun is just like any colt commander sizewise.

03-12-2007, 11:07 AM	#21
bompa V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Western Mass. Posts: 118	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION I believe the 380 Govt model is a closer copy of its big brother the Govt model..Not too sure as I was never able to find a 380 Govt model that I could afford.,,Do have a Mustang and a Pony and like them very much..They are very comfortable shooting because of the locked breech system..

06-10-2007, 12:42 PM	#23
patrol V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 324	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION The "Exact" copy of your sought after 1911 made by "Colt" even) in the 380acp caliber are two mdls: The Colt "Mustang" Pocketlite and the Colt "Government" model pocket lite this one is an older "Mustang" and you can find them both on Auction Arms and yes they are overpriced for what they are but that's how colt's roll. Llama's in my opinion are "POS'. and have absolutely no collector value. If you want a good 380 that is reliable, cheap and the smallest they make get you a Keltec.

06-10-2007, 12:54 PM	#25
patrol V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 324	Re: COLT MINATURE 1911 QUESTION Yep, just checked the EMP, correction on the GA gun of the year it was the American Rifleman gun of the year already and it is actually 2oz heavier than the two para's I mentioned that are both 1911's also.