Tried something today with 40cal. - The Firearms Forum

tundra01 · 07-06-2010, 11:03 PM

I recently retired so I had several pairs of usless denim jeans. I was gonna burn them on a brush pile when I got the chance. But I was at the farm today and had 40cal with me so I folded each pair of jeans three times and stacked them in a pile. Each pair of jeans would be sixteen layers of denim. The winchester hollow point went through six pairs of jeans (96 layers of denim) and stopped on the seventh pair. When I found all three rounds in the jeans I was supprised to see that the HP did not mushroom. Bullet looked good as new. Tommorow I'm gonna take the 45 with me and do the same thing. Why did the bullet not separate like normal?

woolleyworm · 07-06-2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tundra01

I recently retired so I had several pairs of usless denim jeans. I was gonna burn them on a brush pile when I got the chance. But I was at the farm today and had 40cal with me so I folded each pair of jeans three times and stacked them in a pile. Each pair of jeans would be sixteen layers of denim. The winchester hollow point went through six pairs of jeans (96 layers of denim) and stopped on the seventh pair. When I found all three rounds in the jeans I was supprised to see that the HP did not mushroom. Bullet looked good as new. Tommorow I'm gonna take the 45 with me and do the same thing. Why did the bullet not separate like normal?

A HP requires soft materials/tissues/matter in order to expand properly. Something has to get into the bullet cavity for it to forced into expansion. Once a soft material has entered the cavity, further pressure upon it causes the petals to open up. I can only reason that the denim was "pushed" out of the way and is not a suitable material to cause expansion. Just my .02, there is probably a better explaination, but this is the general idea.

tundra01 · 07-07-2010, 12:09 AM

Sounds good to me. I just want to see if the 45hp out of a 1911 does the same thing. Thanks.

oscarmayer · 07-07-2010, 04:04 AM

try the same experiment with a milk jug ( filled with water) behind the folded jeans as see what happens i bet you see expansion

Rugermanws · 07-07-2010, 06:53 PM

I know one thing, not to piss you off while wearing a pair of jeans....Stay well.

rglbegl · 07-07-2010, 08:48 PM

Hollow points shot through denim become Ball ammo.
The hollow point gets clogged up, making the bullet (effectively) the same as a round nose Ball bullet.

This is why many people will shoot a 9mm in the summer, and a .45 in the winter.
People wear more layers in Winter time. So a 9mm bullet, which is a little more dependant on ammo selection, is not as effective as a huge .45 bullet.
If your hollow points become Ball ammo after traveling through clothes, you may as well make as BIG of a hole as you can.

grampawmike · 07-08-2010, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tundra01

I recently retired so I had several pairs of usless denim jeans. I was gonna burn them on a brush pile when I got the chance. But I was at the farm today and had 40cal with me so I folded each pair of jeans three times and stacked them in a pile. Each pair of jeans would be sixteen layers of denim. The winchester hollow point went through six pairs of jeans (96 layers of denim) and stopped on the seventh pair. When I found all three rounds in the jeans I was supprised to see that the HP did not mushroom. Bullet looked good as new. Tommorow I'm gonna take the 45 with me and do the same thing. Why did the bullet not separate like normal?

Along these lines, a number of years ago (more than I like to think about) we (the police agency I worked for) did some testing with a heavy leather (motorcycle type) jacket and 12 ga shotgun slugs. At around 60 yds. we could hit the jacket (just hanging) dead center and watch it fly up, then go pick up the big chunk of lead out some yards behind the jacket. There was very little, if any, deformation of the slug, and no hole in the jacket. As soon as there was a backstop of any sort........big hole in the leather and a deformed chunk of lead. Needs ENOUGH resistance to function as it should.

JLA · 07-08-2010, 12:45 PM

The HP are clogging. It takes the hydraulic force of a soft target to fill the cavity and force the petals out. then the inertia of the bullet ripping through the flesh will finish sripping the copper and lead back. Test with the jeans draped over a 55 gallon barrel of water. You will need something high to stand on like a ladder so you can shoot down into the barrel. Thats the best soft target alternative for bullet expansion tests.

You'll likely end up with something like this

Slabsides · 07-08-2010, 04:30 PM

Problem: Clothing-clogged HPs.

Solution: http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Defense-newammo/

Slabsides · 07-08-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rglbegl

Hollow points shot through denim become Ball ammo.
The hollow point gets clogged up, making the bullet (effectively) the same as a round nose Ball bullet.

This is why many people will shoot a 9mm in the summer, and a .45 in the winter.
People wear more layers in Winter time. So a 9mm bullet, which is a little more dependant on ammo selection, is not as effective as a huge .45 bullet.
If your hollow points become Ball ammo after traveling through clothes, you may as well make as BIG of a hole as you can.

^See above entry. I carry 9mm and do not care how much clothing is there. I've shot Critical Defense rounds through a layer of leather and denim which destroyed the water melon on the other side.

tundra01 · 07-09-2010, 11:19 PM

I appreciate all the help. I have to say that I was really mystified when I dug the slugs out of the denim. I still haven't got to fire the 1911 into them. I will do that ASAP and post pic of both the 40cal and the 45 cal. The above post makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

07-06-2010, 11:03 PM	#1
tundra01 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: KY Posts: 45	Tried something today with 40cal. I recently retired so I had several pairs of usless denim jeans. I was gonna burn them on a brush pile when I got the chance. But I was at the farm today and had 40cal with me so I folded each pair of jeans three times and stacked them in a pile. Each pair of jeans would be sixteen layers of denim. The winchester hollow point went through six pairs of jeans (96 layers of denim) and stopped on the seventh pair. When I found all three rounds in the jeans I was supprised to see that the HP did not mushroom. Bullet looked good as new. Tommorow I'm gonna take the 45 with me and do the same thing. Why did the bullet not separate like normal? --> Last edited by tundra01; 07-06-2010 at 11:06 PM..

07-07-2010, 12:09 AM	#3
tundra01 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: KY Posts: 45	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. Sounds good to me. I just want to see if the 45hp out of a 1911 does the same thing. Thanks.

07-07-2010, 04:04 AM	#4
oscarmayer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Contributor Posts: 2,387	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. try the same experiment with a milk jug ( filled with water) behind the folded jeans as see what happens i bet you see expansion

07-07-2010, 06:53 PM	#5
Rugermanws V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: White Oak Pa Posts: 227	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. I know one thing, not to piss you off while wearing a pair of jeans....Stay well.

07-07-2010, 08:48 PM	#6
rglbegl Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dana point CA Posts: 531	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. Hollow points shot through denim become Ball ammo. The hollow point gets clogged up, making the bullet (effectively) the same as a round nose Ball bullet. This is why many people will shoot a 9mm in the summer, and a .45 in the winter. People wear more layers in Winter time. So a 9mm bullet, which is a little more dependant on ammo selection, is not as effective as a huge .45 bullet. If your hollow points become Ball ammo after traveling through clothes, you may as well make as BIG of a hole as you can.

07-08-2010, 12:45 PM	#8
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,407	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. The HP are clogging. It takes the hydraulic force of a soft target to fill the cavity and force the petals out. then the inertia of the bullet ripping through the flesh will finish sripping the copper and lead back. Test with the jeans draped over a 55 gallon barrel of water. You will need something high to stand on like a ladder so you can shoot down into the barrel. Thats the best soft target alternative for bullet expansion tests. You'll likely end up with something like this Attached Images __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

07-08-2010, 04:30 PM	#9
Slabsides Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama) Posts: 926	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. Problem: Clothing-clogged HPs. Solution: http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Defense-newammo/ __________________ /l ,[____], l---L -OlllllllO- ()_)-()_)-o-)_)

07-09-2010, 11:19 PM	#11
tundra01 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: KY Posts: 45	Re: Tried something today with 40cal. I appreciate all the help. I have to say that I was really mystified when I dug the slugs out of the denim. I still haven't got to fire the 1911 into them. I will do that ASAP and post pic of both the 40cal and the 45 cal. The above post makes a lot of sense. Thanks.