Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6,5 x 54

[rociomendaro]

Hi there. I inherited a rifle from my father some years ago and nobody seems to know anything other than that it is "a fabulous antique". I would greatly appreciate any information you could give me, but I unfortunately have almost no knowledge of gun vocabulary in English. Stamped on the metal on the top are the words Patent Mannlicher Schoenauer, but the word Schoenauer has been partially covered by what appears to be a mount for a sight. On the left side are the words "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.Ges.Steyr", and further up "NPv" and what appears to be an Austro-Hungarian crest (double headed eagle). On the right side 2768. Stamped on the underside on the wood is the number 1251. The wood goes all the way to the end of the barrell. It has a double trigger, bolt action (very smooth). The gun's length is about 1 metre, the barrell 48cm, and on the end where the gun leans on your shoulder (metal) there is a flap that swings open to show 3 holes where bullets can go. The gun's papers (I am in Spain, and they are very strict about documentation here) say "Caliber 6,5 x 54, Model Saut, Category 22, Series 2768". It works beautifully. My 19-year-old daughter occasionally hunts with it (its small and light) and I have been "scolded" for allowing "such a piece" out with a teen. Is it really "such a piece"?
Thanks very much for your time
Cio Mendaro

[Xracer]

Hi rociomendaro....welcome to TFF.

Originally Posted by rociomendaro

I have been "scolded" for allowing "such a piece" out with a teen. Is it really "such a piece"?

Yes it is! It's very much "such a piece". It's either a Model 1903 or Model 1950 Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5mm Carbine. Is there a model number anywhere on the gun?

They're both very similar, but the main difference is the barrel length and value. The Model 1903 has a barrel length of 17.7 inches (45 cm) and the Model 1950 has a barrel length of 18.25 inches (46.4 cm). The Model 1903 has a higher value than the Model 1950.

The way to measure the barrel length is to close the bolt, place a rod down the barrel, and mark where the rod exits the front of the barrel. Take out the rod and measure it to the mark.

The MS is a beautiful, and beautifully made firearm.

Your daughter is a very lucky girl to be allowed to hunt with "such a piece"!

[rociomendaro]

Thank you very much Xracer.
The barrel measures 45cm, so I guess its a 1903. I see no other marks on it, but as I mentioned earlier, a sight mount appears to have been set half on top the word Schoenauer (I attach pic), so it may be on top of other marks as well. I send a second picture at a different angle. Has the gun been modified? My family has been using this rifle for as long as I can remember - we have always considered it my great-great-grandfather's rifle but it may have been in the family for longer. Any modifications would have been made before his time. Could these modifications have been made at the factory itself?
Again thank you very much for your time.
Cio Mendaro

[Mark]

It's not uncommon for these 1903 rifles not to have a caliber stamped where it can be seen. If you carefully remove the barreled action from the stock, my bet is you'll find 6,5 stamped somewhere on the bottom of the barrel near the receiver.

The scope mount dovetailed into the top of the receiver may or may not be from the factory. These rifles are uncommon, and to be honest, I've never seen two alike. So much information has been lost over time, and in the old days, the factory may have built anything you could pay for.

Look carefully at the front sight, original front sights were a steel base, then "German Silver" for the blade part. German Silver is pretty much a copper-nickel alloy.

It would be interesting to see how the rear of the telescope was attached. Any chance you have the telescope?

This is a VERY nice rifle, but remember you own it. If you are afraid to use it, then the rifle owns you. I wouldn't use it to prop open a door, or as a pry-bar, but carefully hunting with it and enjoying it was the reason it was built.
Have fun with this.
Mark

[Xracer]

The rear open sight is right where the Model # would normally be stamped.

I've never seen a M-S with two open sights like that, but whomever did it, factory or otherwise, it looks like a real professional job.

In any case, if you'd like to know the value, here's what the Blue Book says (% = amount of original finish left):

Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1903 Carbine:(U.S. Dollars)

98% - $2,200
95% - $1,950
90% - $1,750
80% - $1,500

[Mark]

X-racer, respectfully, I don't think the device dovetailed into the top of the receiver ring is a rear sight. I'm looking at the outward sides, and there appears to be square notches machined, which look as though the have a purpose.
The rifle is otherwise stylish, and having square notches with sharp corners seems out of place. I'm wondering if this isn't a mounting bracket for a detachable scope.

The problem I have with my reasoning is, I can't see anything near the rear bridge which would accept the rear mount.

What's your thinking?
Mark

[Bindernut]

That mount dovetailed to the front receiver ring looks like it is indeed part of a telescopic sight mount system. It's not one that I'm familiar with though, but it looks to be a quick-detachable type. I would suspect the rear mount would be attached to the left side of the rear of the receiver much like the Redfield scope bases that are available for the M-S rifles here in the US.

rociomendaro,
Can you supply another picture of the left side of the action?
That is one beautiful rifle and yes your daughter is very lucky to have such a fine rifle to hunt with!

[rociomendaro]

Thank you very much Xracer, Mark and Bindernut for all your info - this is becoming very interesting! We have always considered the mount to be for a telescopic sight, but none of us remember ever having seen one attached to or associated with this particular rifle. I send a photograph of the left side of what I hope is the action, and one of the front sight, though I wouldn't know what a copper-nickel alloy looks like. Thank you especially Mark and Xracer for your perspective: the prices and advice on "owning" the rifle really made a difference. My daughter will continue to hunt with it, but now we realize what a special piece it is.
Do the NPv and crest mean it was military issue and/or Austrio-Hungarian?

[Contenderizer]

I can see how Xracer missed the fact that the front sight in question is actually a mount for a telescopic sight, given that the first couple of photos didn't contain much detail. As for the rear scope base ... it would have been screwed into the receiver directly behind the bolt handle. Note in the (bottom) photo of Cio's first post how there is a flat area directly behind the bolt handle. The screw holes are located there and are typically hidden by a cover. In this case, the cover appears to still be in place.

[Mark]

The front sight has a German Silver blade.

I do see a screw on the left rear of the receiver bridge that could possibly be a place for attaching a scope mount.

Seeing that front sight brings back memories. It is of such a low height that I'll bet your daughter has to aim about 12 inches low to hit the target at 100 yards. Is this correct?

If you can Google up 6.5 X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer, there's quite a bit about the history of the cartridge. Back in the day, this was quite an African cartridge for plains game.

The NPv is a proof mark meaning the gun will handle smokeless (nitro) powder. This was not designed as a military gun, its a sporting rifle. The market was affluent sportsmen.

I hope you and your daughter enjoy this rifle.
Mark

[rociomendaro]

Again, thank you both so very much for your help.
Mark, actually neither my husband nor I recall having had to aim particularly low to hit our targets, but it is quite possible I am misunderstanding you and am unable to translate this paragraph to him correctly.
In my great grandfather's day this was the "goat gun", but we have used it lately for boar and smaller deer. VERY interesting info on the NPv.
This forum has been extremely helpful and I thank you all for your help. I had written to Mannlicher years ago to ask about the gun and had received a very correct but extremely dry "Our records were all destroyed years ago. We cannot help you." I wish I had known about you then!
Cio Mendaro

[Mark]

I really like old guns like this.

It was a treat for me to respond.
Mark

[DCWilson]

Greetings form a new forum member. I found this thread when I was researching a M-S 1903 that I just bought.

The drift-adjustable front fitting and screw on the back left side of the receiver are indeed scope fittings. I understand that this is a standard mount system for scopes that were ordered from the factory with the rifle. The notch in the rear post is slipped beneath the elevated screw, and the front post is locked with a push-click system once the rear foot is in place. There is a spring-loaded pinch release to take the scope off. Very cool design.





I suppose the channel for the front support would ideally be located on the ring in front of the M-S logo and model ID, but a short scope would require it to be moved back in a way that could obliterate most of the lettering.

My whole gun looks like this. The scope is a 2.5x Kahles Mignon. I understand these were made between 1908 and the late 1930s. The high mount makes it possible to use the iron sights for closer targets.



If anyone here can help me date this rifle, I would appreciate it. The standard 543.21 stamping (denoting unit 543 produced in 1921) is not seen. There is a "36." stamp on the underside of the barrel, and '33." on the underside of the receiver. The disagreement seems to indicate they cannot be production years, unless the barrel is a later refit to a gun that was assembled in1933. But unless the company's serial numbers did not run consistently in numerical order, this one (209xx) doesn't seem to square with what I think I know of other 1903s from the mid-1930s that number in the 15000 range.

Two more photos in case they might help.





Thanks for any additional information that anyone might offer. One thing I would really like to know is when production of the Model 1903 ceased. I don't know if this was one of the models that was reintroduced after WW2 or not.

David Wilson/New Guy

[DCWilson]

Well, let me bump this back to the top to see if anyone who knows the answers may have missed my prior post last week.

Can anyone tell me the year in which production of the 1903 was discontinued?

Do the receiver and barrel stamps on the rifle in the immediately preceding post tell me anything about a possible date of production? I'm thinking of the "33." and "36." in particular, though I still don't see how their disagreement could let them be year stamps.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

David Wilson/Still a New Guy