Manually operated armaments - The Firearms Forum

Cow Caregiver · 05-05-2003, 03:27 PM

When it comes to pistols, everybody wants an autoloader. When it comes to rifles, everybody wants an autoloader. Now, I like the self-shucker for some applications, especially when somebody else is paying for the ammo, but when I am looking at long-term operations, and loading ammo on the cheap, I want a manually actuated gun, so I don't have expensive brass flying off into the underbrush.

The double action revolver can be made to cycle faster than an autopistol. For proof, check out Ed McGivern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" and see what he was doing back before WW 2 with a da sixgun. The manually operated gun does just fine in most applications.

The bolt gun or a slide action rifle can bust doubles on thrown trap birds in the hands of a proficient operator. Cooper's students have done so repeatedly with the Steyr Scout. Others have done so with much less refined equipment, to include the Mark 1 version of the Number 4 Enfield.

Now, why does most of the folks want one of them self-shucking things?

bigboom338 · 05-05-2003, 04:00 PM

Very good question, I only have 1 DA pistol,2 semi's and 2 SA. I just prefered a semi for my ccw cause I didnt have one,now that I do, I have been thinking about gettin a DA wheel gun for a spare.
As for all others (shotgun and rifle) I do have a semi shotgun,but would not trade my bolt or single shot rifles for nuthin.

Xracer · 05-05-2003, 04:57 PM

On a rifle, I prefer a bolt action, since they force you to take your time and aim properly.

In handguns, while I have both wheelguns and autos, I prefer the single-action auto due to the (much) nicer trigger pull.

rayra · 05-05-2003, 11:44 PM

Semis are Less Work.

That said, it's a silly point altogether. I have firearms, long and short, in both Semi and 'manual' configs. Makes no difference to me, as I buy each piece as being representative of its 'type'.

ArmaLube · 05-07-2003, 05:45 PM

With regard to autoloaders, it is good to begin by considering handguns and shoulder weapons separately. Depending upon one's specific requirements and personal preferences, each of the various rifle and shotgun configurations has legitimate merits. So the choice boils down to individual preference.

Where handguns are concerned, the analysis is somewhat different. Modern semi-automatic pistols are the most advanced evolutionary form of handgun. They are generally chacterized by relatively flat form factor (easy concealability), higher cartridge capacity than most revolvers, power levels out to whatever makes you happy, double action readiness of a revolver, super safe mechanical design in many (but not all) models, and rapid fire with easier controllability than revolvers. Also, pistols often feature very easy barrel changing, simple rugged mechanical design, relative ease of field stripping, and very high functional reliability (depending upon the brand and model).

Thus, the reasons for choosing semi-automatic pistols over revolvers are quite compelling. The best semi-auto pistols available today (such as those produced by SigArms) bring the gun owner advanced firearms technology upon which he/she can rely. As with all personal decisions, the final choice rests with each gun owner. Based upon individual knowledge and preferences, we each make our own choices. Thoughtful gun enthusiasts will enjoy their personal preferences, while respecting the the individual views of others.

Cow Caregiver · 05-09-2003, 12:32 PM

Armalube, I do not find it so. The autopistol will not cycle nearly as fast as a DA wheel gun worked by someone who has done the work needful to learn to slap two rounds in about a quarter of a second. A pair of .38 wadcutters or SWC at about a quarter of a second and an inch apart are a horrific thing to the repair folks.

The only area in which the autopistol excels is ammunition handlilng, and that involves reloads, which the speed loader can handle in the wheel gun.

That said, your response is the first evidence of careful and dispassionate reasoning we have seen on this thread.

ArmaLube · 05-09-2003, 01:01 PM

Hi Cow Caregiver,

Thank you for the good words. As you mention, revolver actions are capable of great speed. But, as you know, few people are able to controllably exploit that speed.

I understand your views, and have complete respect for them. For many years I was exclusively a revolver fan, then about 15 years ago I flipped to the other side. As you know, both categories have large and loyal followings, and there are interesting merits on each side.

Best wishes, and happy safe shooting!

loader44 · 05-09-2003, 02:07 PM

I am a wheel gun person, I like my 9mm ruger, but, most of my time ( 95% ) I like the old fashened wheel guns.

Just thought I would add MTCW to the disscussion.

loader44.

Cow Caregiver · 05-09-2003, 04:35 PM

As ever was, practice makes perfect. Many many rounds go downrange, and then we are proficient. Then we have a stroke and croak....

pickenup · 05-09-2003, 07:11 PM

In one of the monthly handgun matches that I participate in, there are a couple of guys that use a wheel gun, with speed-loaders. They are shooting in class A. (handgun capacity of 8 rounds or less) Most everyone else uses a self-shucker, which is class B. (over 8 rounds) While the wheel gun guys are good with what they use, and (for the most part) consistently place well in the match, (even won a few times) they do not finish in the top group, when it comes to the “year end” scores. Granted, it does have something to do with “who” you are shooting against. They admit that they have to “work” a little harder than the rest of us.

Therein lies one of the answers to your question (in my opinion) To be proficient with a wheel gun and speed-loaders, you have to practice (work) with that application. Most people are basically lazy and want the high capacity (less work) of the modern semi-auto. (1911’s and clones excluded of course) They can have 13-15-18 rounds fired before reloading, then having more mags easily accessible, to shoot that many times again, before having to reload. Instead of having the row upon row of pouches strung all the way across you, that are needed to carry enough speed-loaders to finish a match.

I have both types in rifle and handguns, and like to shoot them all.

P.S. Oh ya thanks alot for the stroke and croak line.
I am close enough for that to be scarry. LOL

Logansdad · 06-01-2003, 10:01 AM

I went to a gun show with a buddy of mine once. He bought an H&K .45 ACP..I spent the same amount of money and had a 12 gauge pump and a stainless .357 magnum revolver.

05-05-2003, 03:27 PM	#1
Cow Caregiver V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 136	Manually operated armaments When it comes to pistols, everybody wants an autoloader. When it comes to rifles, everybody wants an autoloader. Now, I like the self-shucker for some applications, especially when somebody else is paying for the ammo, but when I am looking at long-term operations, and loading ammo on the cheap, I want a manually actuated gun, so I don't have expensive brass flying off into the underbrush. The double action revolver can be made to cycle faster than an autopistol. For proof, check out Ed McGivern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" and see what he was doing back before WW 2 with a da sixgun. The manually operated gun does just fine in most applications. The bolt gun or a slide action rifle can bust doubles on thrown trap birds in the hands of a proficient operator. Cooper's students have done so repeatedly with the Steyr Scout. Others have done so with much less refined equipment, to include the Mark 1 version of the Number 4 Enfield. Now, why does most of the folks want one of them self-shucking things? __________________ Freedom comes dear. Don't let anybody steal yours.... -->

05-05-2003, 04:00 PM	#2
bigboom338 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Dakota Posts: 399	Very good question, I only have 1 DA pistol,2 semi's and 2 SA. I just prefered a semi for my ccw cause I didnt have one,now that I do, I have been thinking about gettin a DA wheel gun for a spare. As for all others (shotgun and rifle) I do have a semi shotgun,but would not trade my bolt or single shot rifles for nuthin. __________________ "Aim Small Miss Small"

05-05-2003, 11:44 PM	#4
rayra Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PRK Posts: 595	Semis are Less Work. That said, it's a silly point altogether. I have firearms, long and short, in both Semi and 'manual' configs. Makes no difference to me, as I buy each piece as being representative of its 'type'. __________________ The Friend of My Enemy is My Enemy

05-07-2003, 05:45 PM	#5
ArmaLube Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7	Autoloaders With regard to autoloaders, it is good to begin by considering handguns and shoulder weapons separately. Depending upon one's specific requirements and personal preferences, each of the various rifle and shotgun configurations has legitimate merits. So the choice boils down to individual preference. Where handguns are concerned, the analysis is somewhat different. Modern semi-automatic pistols are the most advanced evolutionary form of handgun. They are generally chacterized by relatively flat form factor (easy concealability), higher cartridge capacity than most revolvers, power levels out to whatever makes you happy, double action readiness of a revolver, super safe mechanical design in many (but not all) models, and rapid fire with easier controllability than revolvers. Also, pistols often feature very easy barrel changing, simple rugged mechanical design, relative ease of field stripping, and very high functional reliability (depending upon the brand and model). Thus, the reasons for choosing semi-automatic pistols over revolvers are quite compelling. The best semi-auto pistols available today (such as those produced by SigArms) bring the gun owner advanced firearms technology upon which he/she can rely. As with all personal decisions, the final choice rests with each gun owner. Based upon individual knowledge and preferences, we each make our own choices. Thoughtful gun enthusiasts will enjoy their personal preferences, while respecting the the individual views of others. __________________ "ArmaLube Hits The Mark"

05-09-2003, 12:32 PM	#6
Cow Caregiver V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 136	Returns the shuttle loom.... Armalube, I do not find it so. The autopistol will not cycle nearly as fast as a DA wheel gun worked by someone who has done the work needful to learn to slap two rounds in about a quarter of a second. A pair of .38 wadcutters or SWC at about a quarter of a second and an inch apart are a horrific thing to the repair folks. The only area in which the autopistol excels is ammunition handlilng, and that involves reloads, which the speed loader can handle in the wheel gun. That said, your response is the first evidence of careful and dispassionate reasoning we have seen on this thread. __________________ Freedom comes dear. Don't let anybody steal yours....

05-05-2003, 04:57 PM	#3
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	On a rifle, I prefer a bolt action, since they force you to take your time and aim properly. In handguns, while I have both wheelguns and autos, I prefer the single-action auto due to the (much) nicer trigger pull.

05-09-2003, 01:01 PM	#7
ArmaLube Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7	Hi Cow Caregiver, Thank you for the good words. As you mention, revolver actions are capable of great speed. But, as you know, few people are able to controllably exploit that speed. I understand your views, and have complete respect for them. For many years I was exclusively a revolver fan, then about 15 years ago I flipped to the other side. As you know, both categories have large and loyal followings, and there are interesting merits on each side. Best wishes, and happy safe shooting! __________________ "ArmaLube Hits The Mark"

05-09-2003, 02:07 PM	#8
loader44 Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Tuscola,Texas Posts: 14	wheel gun person myself. I am a wheel gun person, I like my 9mm ruger, but, most of my time ( 95% ) I like the old fashened wheel guns. Just thought I would add MTCW to the disscussion. loader44.

05-09-2003, 04:35 PM	#9
Cow Caregiver V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 136	Manually operated arms As ever was, practice makes perfect. Many many rounds go downrange, and then we are proficient. Then we have a stroke and croak.... __________________ Freedom comes dear. Don't let anybody steal yours....

05-09-2003, 07:11 PM	#10
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,841	In one of the monthly handgun matches that I participate in, there are a couple of guys that use a wheel gun, with speed-loaders. They are shooting in class A. (handgun capacity of 8 rounds or less) Most everyone else uses a self-shucker, which is class B. (over 8 rounds) While the wheel gun guys are good with what they use, and (for the most part) consistently place well in the match, (even won a few times) they do not finish in the top group, when it comes to the “year end” scores. Granted, it does have something to do with “who” you are shooting against. They admit that they have to “work” a little harder than the rest of us. Therein lies one of the answers to your question (in my opinion) To be proficient with a wheel gun and speed-loaders, you have to practice (work) with that application. Most people are basically lazy and want the high capacity (less work) of the modern semi-auto. (1911’s and clones excluded of course) They can have 13-15-18 rounds fired before reloading, then having more mags easily accessible, to shoot that many times again, before having to reload. Instead of having the row upon row of pouches strung all the way across you, that are needed to carry enough speed-loaders to finish a match. I have both types in rifle and handguns, and like to shoot them all. P.S. Oh ya thanks alot for the stroke and croak line. I am close enough for that to be scarry. LOL __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

06-01-2003, 10:01 AM	#11
Logansdad V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Alabama's Gulf Coast Posts: 222	I went to a gun show with a buddy of mine once. He bought an H&K .45 ACP..I spent the same amount of money and had a 12 gauge pump and a stainless .357 magnum revolver. __________________ "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Jesus, Luke 22:36 "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it..