Free will & an omniscient creator god?

[Goose Springsteen]

Hey Guys,

Now to lay my cards on the table I'm not really decided on where I stand on the existence of free will but just from a theological perspective it seems that if you're not a subscriber to Calvinism or some other similar sect of Christianity you will have a belief in the ability of people as free agents to make decisions.

I know this forum has quite a few different types of Christians on here so I was wondering if you would to the best of your ability be able to address this apparent problem.

An omniscient creator God (who is also omnipotent) has the distinction of not only being able to create anything in any way it chooses but it also has the capacity to foresee the consequences of any possible creation that it may consider and being omniscient that means all of them!

Therefore in the act of creating in a particular way they are surely simply enacting a chain of events that are for all intents and purposes deterministic due to their absolute knowledge?

[jack404]

folks i call TROLL

over to you all

i've seen similar intros by the green left here

arguing Christians or some rubbish

but read its other posts and decide

[Goose Springsteen]

Originally Posted by jack404

folks i call TROLL

over to you all

i've seen similar intros by the green left here

arguing Christians or some rubbish

but read its other posts and decide

Please do enlighten me, how is asking a question trolling?

If I was saying "LOL CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID" or "GOD DOESN'T EXIST" I could understand that. What I've presented above is something I'd like to get peoples perspectives on - I'm not here to take away peoples faith and nor am I on a grand crusade with the end game of debunking Christianity it's obviously not the right forum for that type of thing.

Last time I checked I'm a "he" not an "it" too!

As to the stuff about the Green left - as far as I know I've not shared any of my opinions on green issues here ?

[ampaterry]

Troll - 2 votes now, Jack -

[RunningOnMT]

Just from what I had read, I think the boot may have been a bit premature. I didn't see any forum guidelines violated and the man did sound like a thinker. We can't be booting people simply because they disagree with us. It sounded to me like he just wanted to join in some friendly debate.

[Model195Fan]

I am not competent to comment on the troll issue, but I do understand that many people see a contradiction. I don't. Assuming for the moment what many of us believe, that man has free will, the real issue is God's level of knowledge. I think that most of us have trouble comprehending that. At least I do. Can you imagine what it takes to create a universe, and apparently run it, too? Why should one be surprised that he cannot really comprehend God's knowledge?

[RunningOnMT]

Man has free will to make decisions but I also believe God CAN arrange things providentially to make some choices more appealing than others. I do believe that God calls the elect to salvation but man still has the choice to heed that call.

The original question was right out of intro to philosophy 101. The classic argument goes like this:

"Do you believe that man has free will?"

If no, "Then how can a just God hold him accountable for his actions?"

If yes, "Do you believe God is omnicient?"

If no, then conversation over.

If yes, "So God knows in advance what choices you will make?"

"Yes."

"If say today you will have a choice between two actions, does God know what you will choose?"

"Yes."

"Then if you have free will, is it possible that you can make a choice other than what an omicient God already knows you will choose?"

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I think the only way around these little excercizes is to understand that God, being infinite, is outside the time space continuum. He has created time and space to hold us, but is not confined to it as we are. An infinite being outside of time has no past or future, only a present. He knows our future because it is His present. God even gives us a hint of this when he refers to Himself as IAM that IAM. When we refer to God in the past tense, it is OUR past tense, not God's. At least that's how I explain it. But not being infinite myself, how can I know?

[jack404]

ROMT yes top some it may be premmie but we been getting a lot of the same class of thinker and while they may not have screwed many of your posts they have screwed many and many just to stick to us types

go back a few days and see how many of these enlightened types we have had

besides if they have to cut and paste there initial question from a board dedicated to trolling folks like us to get the green left message across

how smart are they ?

[raven818]

An omniscient creator God (who is also omnipotent) has the distinction of not only being able to create anything in any way it chooses but it also has the capacity to foresee the consequences of any possible creation that it may consider and being omniscient that means all of them!

Maybe it's just me, but calling God 'it' seems like bait to me.

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by raven818

Maybe it's just me, but calling God 'it' seems like bait to me.

What would be your preference? He/She? Him/Her?
'It' seems like a rather neutral term to me as we don't know.

[raven818]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

What would be your preference? He/She? Him/Her?
'It' seems like a rather neutral term to me as we don't know.

I've personally never heard God referred to in any scripture as It ( capital I ).

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by Model195Fan

I am not competent to comment on the troll issue, but I do understand that many people see a contradiction. I don't. Assuming for the moment what many of us believe, that man has free will, the real issue is God's level of knowledge. I think that most of us have trouble comprehending that. At least I do. Can you imagine what it takes to create a universe, and apparently run it, too? Why should one be surprised that he cannot really comprehend God's knowledge?

Exactly correct.
I am quite confident that if just a PORTION of God's knowledge were suddenly pumped into our brain, our head would explode like the folks who stepped out of line in Hardwired.

Now, we see through a glass, darkly -
But then! Face to face!!

[jack404]

Model195Fan i love science , i think what we call science is the bits and pieces God used to make all we see

its was more or less planned before it was all set off

the instructions are built into everything and include allowances for adaption ( evolutionary )

but in regard to the troll

there are some set arguments that exist that do nothing but confound folks

we know some things in the Bible are a paradox , but thats where Faith comes in

i dont see them as paradox's at all but they can confound folks when limited to biblical responces

some folks with liberal bents like to use these to play a game with folks like us and we've seen a few of these folks recently

their side is all that matters

open discussion does not exist , they have a script they play too

and i'll but good bucks down thats exactly what that clown was doing ,

the same intro can be searched for in google and it is in a few forums

my call was to out this to protect the users from a useless scripted argument meant to cause upset in people

if thats wrong say so , but then the libtards get to annoy the jeepers outta folks

if its a pre set socialist ramble i'm normally happy to let em playb , i dont play inside the box, as God aint in the box

but in the pure faith area here , i'm tired of giving these sicko's a platform

i am tired of giving stages to those who think nothing of totally disrespecting all about my Faith while demanding we bow to there "new age ideals " ( which we all know is che revamped )

kick my butt if you think its required

always happy to be shown where wrong

but also happy to make a wager about if i was on this one ..

sucks when you've seen the same scumbag play for the 15th time

[ampaterry]

Totally agree, Jack.

I am the same way with the Neo-Nazi idiots.

I have had the EXACT same arguments, word for word, from several of them.
I am now at the point that I dump them at the FIRST scripted point they make.
Arguing with them is a waste of oxygen!
Some of them may actually KNOW the truth, but they refuse to admit it in their overarching desire to blast the Jewish people.

[jack404]

Australian Protectionist Party , its gone Neo , and become a bunch of lying wimps in the process

it started nationalist .. oh well

hey in the fire for effect forum debate it there , here , i'd rather we keep this area clean and not full of the great online minds of socialism , especially the script gamers

if someone has fair dinkum questions , please post away , look in the past we take all side ..

cheers

[raven818]

I've ran in to many Christians over the years that are ready to fight if evolution is presented as a possibility/probability/ or end result of Gods work. Not gonna debate it, just sayin..

[Gun Geezer]

I believe in the existence of God, a higher power rather than a supreme being. Humans are not privileged to comprehend the exact nature of God but are free to speculate in the name of religion much the same way as physicists theorize the nature of the physical universe using scientific terminology.
If there are truly billions of galaxy's, each galaxy made up of billions of stars with trillions of earth-like planets revolving around them, man cannot possibly comprehend, in human terms, any power, that can keep it all in perfect alignment, never mind the uncalculable numbers of beings the laws of probability suggest. Some things just have to be taken on faith.

[jack404]

Gun Geezer my favourite subject and shows just how great God truly is