New ATF ruling - The Firearms Forum

armedandsafe · 11-24-2010, 07:56 PM

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...tes-new-danger

Quote:

ATF position on pistol grip 'shotguns' creates new danger
November 15th, 2010 12:13 pm ET
By David Codrea, Gun Rights Examiner
..An interpretation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns has created an unforeseen legal liability for owners of such firearms. ATF’s Nov. 2009 FFL Newsletter declared:

Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.

Here’s another wrinkle, from Mike Vanderboegh at Sipsey Street Irregulars:

An October 27, 2010, letter from the Firearms Technology Branch ruled that such a firearm, with a 17" barrel and 26-1/4" overall length, was not subject to the National Firearms Act.

You can click here to read the letter.

That would seem to indicate there’s no issue with violating National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) requirements, right? No worries if you own one, or want to buy one…?

Not so fast. If the pistol grip firearms are not “shotguns,” what are they?

The NFA Owners Association points us to the only “legal” definition seemingly available with which to classify these firearms (click on link for “National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, as amended” to open up the text):

[T]aken at face value, a "pistol grip firearm" with a bore diameter larger than 1/2" in diameter is a "Destructive Device" under the NFA, unless the Attorney General determines that it is "a shotgun . . . generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes." By determining that a "pistol grip firearm" is not a shotgun, it is difficult to understand how current law would not classify such as firearm as a Destructive Device."

A “Destructive Device”?

{SNIP} Click on the link above for the rest of the column.

Photo © Oleg Volk. Used with permission. Be sure and check out more of his fantastic work at OlegVolk.net.

Couple that with a rabid anti-gun fanatic being pushed forward for ATF director, this is scary indeed.

Pops

johnlives4christ · 11-24-2010, 09:47 PM

i guess the'll be millions of gun owners lubing up and bending over. they'll comply with whatever laws are imposed with this new ruling instead of doing the "right" thing. i expect the market for shotgun pistol grips will go up as gun owners lube up and remove their pistol grips in fear of being caught and jailed.

its a silly gun law, a loop hole in a law that is already unconstitutional. just one more way to restrict lawful gun owners. i dont even like pistol gripped shotguns, i reckon i wont have much option after too long though.

in essence it wont be any difference then owning a short barreled rifle. i dont know anyone who illegally owns a sbr under the guise that the law is unconstitutional and they will not have their rights infringed. and while we all dont like it, if they make a big deal about it im sure we'll all comply...for now. maybe a pistol gripped shotgun will be the "ak" of the free world

ofitg · 11-25-2010, 12:09 AM

This article confuses me.... at the beginning it talks about pistol grips replacing buttstocks, and later it talks about pistol grip forends. I tried to find some info on the
ATF website - no luck - can anybody provide a link?

The whole story is reminescent of the early 1990s, when the ATF declared the USAS-12 and the StreetSweeper to be "destructive devices".

Marlin T · 11-25-2010, 12:35 AM

The original story, at the link provided above, has additional links in the story.

Here is the original letter sent to Mr Savage from Robert Spencer.
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

ofitg · 11-25-2010, 12:57 AM

Thanks, Marlin. Some of the links in the original post crashed. I was able to download the letter you provided. Still a bit confusing.... but it seems they are talking about pistol grips replacing buttstocks.

hogger129 · 11-25-2010, 08:12 AM

Thousands of people should just go out and buy "destructive" firearms like automatics or these types of shotguns and say screw you ATF. What are they going to do? Arrest thousands of people?

It's high time we showed them who they work for. Governments are instituted among free men. So it's not the government's place to tell us what we can and cannot do.

jack404 · 11-25-2010, 08:17 AM

looks like this effects things like the Taurus Judge

shotgun shell or capable and a pistol grip

sorry when i first read this guy was under selection and looked at his history i knew it was bad news ..

send him to Oz i'll take him fishing for ya's ...

kingchip · 11-25-2010, 09:39 AM

Guess I'll have to register my hammer, soon. It too can be destructive...

And then there is my brother in law...

johnlives4christ · 11-25-2010, 02:03 PM

you're right hogger. if enough people disobeyed the "law" then eventually they would see that we're not going to be disarmed. there would be a select few though that they martyr. one problem would be though that people like myself would be at risk if caught because singled out it no longer would be a statement, but breaking the law

user · 11-25-2010, 05:54 PM

Well, let's see: it's a smooth bore that shoots lots of pellets all at once, right? That's a shot gun. what I can't figure out is why the Judge handgun isn't a shotgun.

armedandsafe · 11-25-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

send him to Oz i'll take him fishing for ya's ...

Short of bait, are ya'?

Pops

jack404 · 11-25-2010, 06:25 PM

just being neighbourly pops , besides one more wont make that much of a difference ....

armedandsafe · 11-25-2010, 06:52 PM

My understanding was that even the 'gators won't touch him. Maybe your crocs aren't so picky?

Pops

jack404 · 11-25-2010, 07:42 PM

not croc's pops , Great whites ... Mako's Bull sharks , Tiger sharks

punch some holes in a can of oily cat food put it on a line and tow it behind a boat here , see how many sharks are up ya klakker within a few miles ... most times they'll take the can too ..

if it bleeds its food

this is a 6-7 foot bronze whaler i caught, till a 17 foot tiger came along

munch , munch, munch, munch, and thats how he caught himself

cheers

Marlin T · 11-25-2010, 10:52 PM

Jack, the title for your pic should be, "Ironic isn't it."

graehaven · 11-26-2010, 11:42 AM

firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock...

it seems they're referring to those shotguns WITHOUT a butt stock on them??

the ones that ONLY have the pistol grip?

johnlives4christ · 11-26-2010, 01:50 PM

graehaven. thats what it appears. you know i heard from a gun dealer that you cannot buy a pistol gripped shotgun out of state. while you can buy a shotgun in a bordering state.

ofitg · 11-27-2010, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack404

send him to Oz i'll take him fishing for ya's ...

Got room for one more?

ofitg · 11-27-2010, 10:59 AM

Shucks, no response.... I guess George Soros is not invited.

Oh well, I have to admit, feeding him to the fish would be "cruelty to animals"

jack404 · 02-07-2011, 06:28 PM

sorry mate soros is always welcome , just his traveling army may object .. but get him to come fishing alone and we will take care of him nooo worries , him and obozo both . no charge ..

11-24-2010, 09:47 PM	#2
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: New ATF ruling i guess the'll be millions of gun owners lubing up and bending over. they'll comply with whatever laws are imposed with this new ruling instead of doing the "right" thing. i expect the market for shotgun pistol grips will go up as gun owners lube up and remove their pistol grips in fear of being caught and jailed. its a silly gun law, a loop hole in a law that is already unconstitutional. just one more way to restrict lawful gun owners. i dont even like pistol gripped shotguns, i reckon i wont have much option after too long though. in essence it wont be any difference then owning a short barreled rifle. i dont know anyone who illegally owns a sbr under the guise that the law is unconstitutional and they will not have their rights infringed. and while we all dont like it, if they make a big deal about it im sure we'll all comply...for now. maybe a pistol gripped shotgun will be the "ak" of the free world

11-25-2010, 12:09 AM	#3
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: New ATF ruling This article confuses me.... at the beginning it talks about pistol grips replacing buttstocks, and later it talks about pistol grip forends. I tried to find some info on the ATF website - no luck - can anybody provide a link? The whole story is reminescent of the early 1990s, when the ATF declared the USAS-12 and the StreetSweeper to be "destructive devices".

11-25-2010, 12:35 AM	#4
Marlin T Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 7,857	Re: New ATF ruling The original story, at the link provided above, has additional links in the story. Here is the original letter sent to Mr Savage from Robert Spencer. http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf __________________ "But the simple truth--born of experience--is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people." Judge Alex Kozinski - United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. - Thomas Paine Did you read todays GOOD shooting? >>>KEEPANDBEARARMS.COM <<<

11-25-2010, 12:57 AM	#5
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: New ATF ruling Thanks, Marlin. Some of the links in the original post crashed. I was able to download the letter you provided. Still a bit confusing.... but it seems they are talking about pistol grips replacing buttstocks.

11-25-2010, 08:12 AM	#6
hogger129 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,064	Re: New ATF ruling Thousands of people should just go out and buy "destructive" firearms like automatics or these types of shotguns and say screw you ATF. What are they going to do? Arrest thousands of people? It's high time we showed them who they work for. Governments are instituted among free men. So it's not the government's place to tell us what we can and cannot do. __________________ Samuel Adams once said, "among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."

11-25-2010, 08:17 AM	#7
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: New ATF ruling looks like this effects things like the Taurus Judge shotgun shell or capable and a pistol grip sorry when i first read this guy was under selection and looked at his history i knew it was bad news .. send him to Oz i'll take him fishing for ya's ...

11-25-2010, 09:39 AM	#8
kingchip Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Marble Falls, Texas Posts: 541	Re: New ATF ruling Guess I'll have to register my hammer, soon. It too can be destructive... And then there is my brother in law... __________________ "Beware the Prophet seeking profit", Dennis Miller on Algore

11-25-2010, 02:03 PM	#9
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: New ATF ruling you're right hogger. if enough people disobeyed the "law" then eventually they would see that we're not going to be disarmed. there would be a select few though that they martyr. one problem would be though that people like myself would be at risk if caught because singled out it no longer would be a statement, but breaking the law

11-25-2010, 05:54 PM	#10
user Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern piedmont of Va. and Middle of Nowhere, West Virginia Posts: 1,013	Re: New ATF ruling Well, let's see: it's a smooth bore that shoots lots of pellets all at once, right? That's a shot gun. what I can't figure out is why the Judge handgun isn't a shotgun. __________________ ===== Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

11-25-2010, 06:25 PM	#12
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: New ATF ruling just being neighbourly pops , besides one more wont make that much of a difference ....

11-25-2010, 06:52 PM	#13
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Re: New ATF ruling My understanding was that even the 'gators won't touch him. Maybe your crocs aren't so picky? Pops

11-25-2010, 07:42 PM	#14
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: New ATF ruling not croc's pops , Great whites ... Mako's Bull sharks , Tiger sharks punch some holes in a can of oily cat food put it on a line and tow it behind a boat here , see how many sharks are up ya klakker within a few miles ... most times they'll take the can too .. if it bleeds its food this is a 6-7 foot bronze whaler i caught, till a 17 foot tiger came along munch , munch, munch, munch, and thats how he caught himself cheers Attached Images Last edited by jack404; 11-25-2010 at 07:48 PM..

11-25-2010, 10:52 PM	#15
Marlin T Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 7,857	Re: New ATF ruling Jack, the title for your pic should be, "Ironic isn't it." __________________ "But the simple truth--born of experience--is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people." Judge Alex Kozinski - United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. - Thomas Paine Did you read todays GOOD shooting? >>>KEEPANDBEARARMS.COM <<<

11-26-2010, 11:42 AM	#16
graehaven Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,853	Re: New ATF ruling firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock... it seems they're referring to those shotguns WITHOUT a butt stock on them?? the ones that ONLY have the pistol grip? __________________ The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson RESISTANCE IS FEUDAL... PREPARE TO SERVE.

11-26-2010, 01:50 PM	#17
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: New ATF ruling graehaven. thats what it appears. you know i heard from a gun dealer that you cannot buy a pistol gripped shotgun out of state. while you can buy a shotgun in a bordering state.

11-27-2010, 10:59 AM	#19
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: New ATF ruling Shucks, no response.... I guess George Soros is not invited. Oh well, I have to admit, feeding him to the fish would be "cruelty to animals"

02-07-2011, 06:28 PM	#20
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: New ATF ruling sorry mate soros is always welcome , just his traveling army may object .. but get him to come fishing alone and we will take care of him nooo worries , him and obozo both . no charge ..