Bio-Fuel ......

[JohnHenry]

Hi .... I'm from the government, and, I'm here to help you !



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-215_162-...tionContent.13

[jstgsn]

yep,
thank them when you flush your toilet four times. (makes you a 4-flusher).

I'm from the government and here to help...


Run away. Run away.

[Bobitis]

I don't see bio-fuel and ethanol as equals. Far from it. This article puts 'em in the same bag and it's pretty gross.

In our country, ethanol is made from one source. Corn. In that vane, the link is correct. Sugar beets would be a far better choice, and wouldn't compromise the food chain. Why corn? Because it punishes.

Bio-fuel can be made from any number of items. Dead aninmals, algea, garbage, etc. The source of the fuel is pretty much... everything.

I gotta ask why the government supports sacrificeing food for fuel, when they don't support using trash for the same outcome.

Ethanol and bio-fuel are not equal.

[wsas7816]

My two cents: I have made biodiesel in the past using waste fryer fat from restaurants and ran an older Mercedes Diesel for about 50,000 miles on B99. The rendering plant in San Francisco powers their diesel equipment with biodiesel made from their own stock of dead things. I have read that Tyson poultry farms does the same. I am not sure what blend the businesses use. Diesel-using public transit in SF uses B20. Biodiesel has about 90% of the BTUS of fossil diesel and a better cetane rating so performance is nearly the same. The gel point (depending on base product) is much higher than fossil diesel so that is a problem in colder areas. When made from waste product Biodiesel is terrific. There has been some success in making it with algae as well. I am less enthusiastic about Biodiesel from food crops. Lastly, I can't imagine enough Biodiesel being made to effect our Petroleum use unless there are some advancements in non-food crop yields.

Ethanol is a very different product ... low in BTU's and inefficiently made when corn is the base. Brazil does make quite a lot of Ethanol (from Sugar Cane, I think), and I have read their source is much more effecient for making Ethanol. But as far as I can tell Ethanol in an inferior transportation fuel.

[hunter29180]

just a point for a FYI, this is talked about on a RV forum I am a member of. all diesel fuel for road use has a dye in it. states collecting roaduse taxes on diesel sometimes test diesel at weigh stations and rest stops for presence of this dye. A RV'er supposly charged $500.00 in Virgina? for his tank not showing the dye. He had a bumper sticker saying he used only pure Bio-fuel. his exhaust did smell like french fries...police fined him for using "untaxed" fuel on federal and state roadways........his tank was a 100 gal tank so fined $5.00 for each gallon his tank was able to carry.

[300 H&H]

In my state the off road diesel is the stuff with red dye in it, the for road use fuel is nearly clear.

Ethanol is in your fuel to help with emmisions. It replaced MTBE that was carcenagenic, and badly poluted ground water across the westeren states.

Bio fuels are in the refinement stages, and with time will become important as a fuel replacement.

Regards, Kirk

[wsas7816]

@hunter29180 ... sort of the same rules in California, fuels that have no road tax added are dyed (so you can buy Marine Diesel, Off-road diesel, diesel for equipemnt, generators etc and pay no road tax). Biodiesel, when sold by a retailer and not for Marine/Off-Road etc., is fully taxed whether B5 or B100. The home-brewers have been nabbed by the tax man. Though if they can proved they paid road tax for their estimated use there is no problem. The fuel I used in the car was professionally made and sold at a Biodiesel station. When I made Biodiesel it was part of a Community College course.

[millwright]

Originally Posted by 300 H&H

In my state the off road diesel is the stuff with red dye in it, the for road use fuel is nearly clear.

Ethanol is in your fuel to help with emmisions. It replaced MTBE that was carcenagenic, and badly poluted ground water across the westeren states.

Bio fuels are in the refinement stages, and with time will become important as a fuel replacement.

Regards, Kirk

Fuel dyes are standard, per USDOT/USEPA regs ! Mostly they exist to delineate "off road" - red-dyed/untaxed - from road taxed fuels . But other dyes are emerging to delineate low sulphur and ultra-low sulphur content fuels, (again per USDOT regs) ! (Blue and Green, but I can't say for certain which is which.) IOW, your government at work !

I'll dispute your contention ethanol is intended to "help emmissions" ! Its primary purpose was to help politicians recover from the MTBE disaster they -at the insistence of the "green weenies" - endorsed !

All of this satire is not to say American ingenuity and inventiveness - if loosed from government reins - can't create more/better ways of creating better/cleaner motor fuels ! No one has yet managed to develop a better system to turn chemical energy into work than the ICE. What needs doing is creation of better fuels tailored to more efficient combustion/mechanical designs ! >MW

[howlnmad]

I can't count the number of times I've had fuel samples taken at weigh stations. Even had a Virginia officer stop me along the interstate to take one.
I hate the bio-diesel. It plays hell on fuel filters and if it sits long enough it will grow algae.

[wsas7816]

@howlnmad: Sorry to read of your Bio-diesel troubles. I have had no fuel filter issues with Bio-diesel. The fuel I get has growth inhibitors and preservatives mixed with it ... same as with standard diesel fuel and probably the same "stuff" that goes in the boats diesel tank.

[al45lc]

Don't buy into the nonsense that ethanol helps emissions, it's poor performance as a fuel actually hurts as it requires more product burnt for equivelent mileage of high quality straight gasoline.
It's political, and impractical. It's a scam, pure and simple.

[300 H&H]

I hate to say it but you folks are pathetic...

Look up MTBE and find the story. Ethanol is solely mandated for it's reduction in harmfull emmisions caused by pertoleum when it is burnt. When ethanol is burnt it releases CO2 and water. That is all the ellements it has in it. It was not to improve your pathetic milage at all. Never said it would. Cannn't cause the chemistry/energy density is not there.

Go ahead and pollute the rest of the countries ground water with MTBE. Better yet, run for congress and change the law if it is that important to you. Just quit bitching about it. For now at least it is the law. Get used to it.

Tired of this crap,

Kirk

[hunter29180]

Originally Posted by 300 H&H

Kirk

"This is Scotty..Beam me up?...Please??"

[jack404]

Compared with conventional unleaded gasoline, ethanol is a particulate-free burning fuel source that combusts with oxygen to form carbon dioxide, water and aldehydes. Gasoline produces 2.44 CO2 equivalent kg/l and ethanol 1.94.[69] Since ethanol contains 2/3 of the energy per volume as gasoline, ethanol produces 19% more CO2 than gasoline for the same energy. The Clean Air Act requires the addition of oxygenates to reduce carbon monoxide emissions in the United States. The additive MTBE is currently being phased out due to ground water contamination, hence ethanol becomes an attractive alternative additive. Current production methods include air pollution from the manufacturer of macronutrient fertilizers such as ammonia.
A study by atmospheric scientists at Stanford University found that E85 fuel would increase the risk of air pollution deaths relative to gasoline by 9% in Los Angeles, USA: a very large, urban, car-based metropolis that is a worst case scenario.[70] Ozone levels are significantly increased, thereby increasing photochemical smog and aggravating medical problems such as asthma.[71][72]

Ethanol contains soluble and insoluble contaminants.[30] These soluble contaminants, halide ions such as chloride ions, have a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol fuels. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways; they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals causing pitting corrosion, and they increase the conductivity of the fuel. Increased electrical conductivity promotes electric, galvanic, and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system.

Soluble contaminants, such as aluminum hydroxide, itself a product of corrosion by halide ions, clog the fuel system over time.

Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb water vapor directly from the atmosphere. Because absorbed water dilutes the fuel value of the ethanol (although it suppresses engine knock) and may cause phase separation of ethanol-gasoline blends, containers of ethanol fuels must be kept tightly sealed. This high miscibility with water means that ethanol cannot be efficiently shipped through modern pipelines, like liquid hydrocarbons, over long distances.[31] Mechanics also have seen increased cases of damage to small engines, in particular, the carburetor, attributable to the increased water retention by ethanol in fuel.[32]

[300 H&H]

And this changes what?

It's the law, and congress mandates it's use.

All the kings horses and all the kings men cann't change this, unless the law is changed.

Like I said, get used to it. Or change the law.

Regards, Kirk

[300 H&H]

I also don't believe for a second that CO2 is warming our atmosphere. Bad juju that the greenies want you to believe so thay can out law ALL petrolium fuels by the way jack.....

Is that what you really want Jack?

NASA has 20 years of data that clearly shows that heat is being realised from our atmosphere at a much higher rate than the U.N. models predict. Regardless of CO2 models. But tell that to them... and see what your answer is...


regards, Kirk

[jack404]

no mate i'm not a fool , i'm running a group against the climate BS here , hoping to get a rally organised while obozo is here but it may be law here by the time the mongrel arrives

i posted this to say 3 things

with the global push to decrease CO2 , why ethanol ( i know its law etc ..but why that one ?)

with the horrid effects of aldehydes in all its variants , why ethanol ?

and with all the costs associated with it , why ethanol

, its all just more of the globalist BS our leaders are shoving down our throats , democracy ?? aint seen that for a while ... now its dictatin ..

[carver]

Natural gas.

[jack404]

lot's of options out there , so why we using a third rate expensive one that uses a CO2 intensive process to grow ( corn) harvest and process ?

theres a paper done after 4 year test in denmark , they ran gas powered generators off human waste , no fuel cost, lots of real greenhouse gas stopped and converted cleanly into heat and energy

theres algae that you distill and produces a ethanol subvariant without aldehydes

all you need is water with a low oxygen content some weak nitrates and this stuff goes nutz

you can grow the equivalent of a million acres of corn worth in 200 acres of ponds cause you harvest it after 2 weeks ( 6 days in summer ) , all year round

but we got corn based ethanol , the 8th worst option on a list of 300 ...

[300 H&H]

-Jack,

Better read up onwhat compounds are in gasoline. Benzene is the one that comes to my mind. Carcinagenic as all getout. Lots of other stuff in there as well, not good for humans. But I don't ever hear the ethanol nay sayers talking about that one.

I am not a one way train as far as ethanol is concerned. I just like the facts to be presented, not a rail road of misinformation. And it is out there, for sure. Education and wise choices are what we all want.

regards, kirk

[jack404]

i dont mind the idea of ethanol , and diesel is worse than gasoline (petrol here) !!

compare gas chromatagraph outputs on them all pre burn and emissions and compare , cyanochlorides? WTF??? i learned about that stuff when studying Chemical warfare , possible terror weapons ..

but i'm ticked we chose the Monsanto line of corn to make it

of the sources to make ethanol corn is the 8th worst on a list of 300 compiled by the CSIRO before the socialist made it a lap dog to cllimate change here ...

some of them are very very cheap to grow and harvest like the algae, or buffulo rush ( relation to sugar cane i think)

and we also have to reigonalise these things , spread the capabilities and make it a diverse market , that way the producer is producing in his area and getting a income , paying taxes , and polluting less, ( look what it takes to grow and harvest corn , and also look at the junk you gotta put on corn and whats released when thats made , the Monsanto additive makes 55 tons of CO2 to make 1 ton of soil additive , and they yell at car drivers ??

yes go to alternate fuels and energy , i have my own designs for gen's , posted here ..

but do so in a way that makes both environmental sense as well as finacial and dont build a market where only the big players get a seat , keep it cheap , let the small holders in and diversify .. the one process can handle the differing sources of Biomass

[jack404]

anyone interested in a biblical outlook on bio-fuels ?

[300 H&H]

Jack,

gotta work you know....just stoppin by. Your preaching to the choir as for the Monstanto thing. I try like hell to farm without them on my land. Hard, if not very hard to do these days. How the catttle farming going by the way?

Ethanol is far from perfect, and I will be the first to admitt that. E10 has been a no issue here though, as it is what we have had the choice for 30 some years, and most by far burn it here. The technology for it improved to the point we are now getting 2.7 gal.'s per bushel of corn and still have distilllers grains left over for a high protein feed source to feed with ground corn to feed to live stock. Many nay sayers like to forget about this part, and don't include or even mention it in their bashing.....

Yea there is some very bad stuff in crude oil as well as gasoline. I'm no chemist but I would rather be in a room with and ethanol fired engine, than a gasoline fired one. Ethanol by it's very simple molicular nature is much more benigne...

Going to rip up corn stalks now, with the Caterpillar. There goes my carbon credits!

Best regards, Kirk

[al45lc]

Originally Posted by 300 H&H

I hate to say it but you folks are pathetic...

Look up MTBE and find the story. Ethanol is solely mandated for it's reduction in harmfull emmisions caused by pertoleum when it is burnt. When ethanol is burnt it releases CO2 and water. That is all the ellements it has in it. It was not to improve your pathetic milage at all. Never said it would. Cannn't cause the chemistry/energy density is not there.

Go ahead and pollute the rest of the countries ground water with MTBE. Better yet, run for congress and change the law if it is that important to you. Just quit bitching about it. For now at least it is the law. Get used to it.

Tired of this crap,

Kirk

Then don't say it, and how shall we look upon your being from the corn belt in this argument? You have your opinion, and your right to state it, but name calling is not warranted. If you don't like a subject, pass on it, but stop the lecturing about changing and bitching about it, it's not your place.

[jack404]

had some footrot the first two weeks till they got used to water , fences are ok and the rest is day to day , finally got the geese to lay off the cattle ( my guard dogs are geese)

they learned i put food out in the troughs and they get a feed as well , so everyones happy for now , i've had 20 inseminated and see how the offspring look , supposed to be a top Bra/Angus cross bull so maybe we'll see some herd improvement

the others i'm boarding are ok too , i'm putting in a web cam over Christmas

cheers! dont work too hard