Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. - The Firearms Forum

Remington597 · 07-26-2004, 08:27 PM

The 1911 is the most successfull semiauto pistol in history and has been duplicated and cloned by countless gun makers due to its tremendous success, ie., Kimber, Paraordinance, Llama, and dozens upon dozens more.
I was shooting my Ruger MKII the other day and could not help but think of Luger Mausers, etc, so I am thinking to myself, why has only Ruger cloned this design? As far as I am aware, they are the only ones who resemble them that closely. Its a functional and ergonomic design and I understand the lower caliber theory and the 1911 being more practical as a military sidearm, but there are plenty of folks who shoot .22 and .32, so why not market to them, for the plinking and security/light duty,backup. (shorter barrel, say from 4.75inches to 3.75 inches,), maybe I'll do it? thats a thought , ya know? Any input.
1940's-50's Mauser Luger type and related WWII modern clones.

MKII Ruger 4.75 inch.barrel.

gpostal · 07-26-2004, 08:46 PM

i have always fancied them ,but they are not practical ,they did have many flaws ,I still would like to run into no2 in .45 acp

glocknut · 07-26-2004, 09:46 PM

Well Remmy, if thats true....then I guess glock has been cloned and somewhat cloned.....

All kinds of polymer pistols followed the Glock....

Star of spain made a polymer pistol, Cz, S&W, Kel Tek, H&K and many others. In fact

due to the popularity of polymer pistols, even Springfield Armory has even made a Glock Clone...

mike
Glocknut !!!

Remington597 · 07-26-2004, 09:53 PM

There is nothing like a pre-emptive strike. I am glad you're taking it in stride. We all missed your unique wit and humor. I think some of the UK and Canadian members who browse here must think we Yankees are all nuts. They are probably right!!!

45shooter · 07-26-2004, 11:36 PM

Actually, Isn't the grip angle the same on the Luger as the Glock? If so, is the Glock is a Ruger clone?

Using Glocknuts reasoning, the Luger is the most copied pistol ever since it was the first sucessful autoloading design.

Anyway, other than the Ruger, I can't think of anything.

wuzzagrunt · 07-27-2004, 12:04 AM

Using polymer in the manufacture of pistols lowers manufacturing costs, and increases profits. Glock, and other pistol makers, can build a plastic gun to an attractive price point and still make a buck. A consumer can buy a functional plastic weapon at a much lower lower cost than if he went out and bought a good one. Everybody's happy, everybody wins.

pickenup · 07-27-2004, 12:08 AM

glocknut,

Just a little history lesson here.

HK pioneered this use of polymer materials in the production of handguns more than 30 years ago with the development of the VP70Z and P9S pistols.

Glock did not even start making pistols, until the early 80's.

HK was the first to use polymer, beating out glock by about 10 years,
glock is the copy-cat.

Yup, imitation is the best form of flattery.

Mabooger · 07-27-2004, 05:26 AM

I think you guys are forgetting about these little gems! Sorta reminds me of a Luger! This one was made in 1952 in New Haven, Conn!

Remington597 · 07-27-2004, 06:25 AM

mabooger:
Good point, I almost forgot about the High Standard models.

glocknut · 07-27-2004, 06:36 AM

Pickenup

It don't matter to me WHO came out with polymer framed pistols first, I'm just glad they did.

mike
gn

Xracer · 07-27-2004, 07:44 AM

Meanwhile, back at the original subject....."why has only Ruger cloned this design?"

First off, other than superficial looks, the Ruger and P08 have absolutely nothing in common. The Luger is a toggle-action (Borschardt principle), locked breech action. The Ruger is a straight, simple, blowback action. Not a single internal part of the Ruger in any way resembles a single internal part of the Luger.

OTH.....most of the 1911 Clones and copies are just that.....piece by piece copies of the original. Some have a few more bells & whistles, but internally, they're identical copies....except maybe for a long guide rod (which is really unnecessary).

Why do people copy the 1911 and not the Luger?

The 1911 is simple and easy to manufacture. The Luger is complex and expensive to manufacture.

The 1911 functions with a large variety of ammunition. The Luger is very finiky as to ammo......which is why it lost out in the 1904-05 U.S. Military Trials.

The GI 1911 was easy to take down, clean, and repair in the field. The Luger was not.

The GI 1911 will operate under a wide variety of climate extremes, and will function in dust, dirt, mud, etc. The Luger did not (and does not) function well in these extremes.....which is why it had a short service life. It was replaced by the Walther P38 in 1938....after only 30 years as a first-line issue weapon.

The 1911 design responds well to tweeking and accurizing.....the Luger does not. There's nothing anybody can do to make the Luger trigger even marginally acceptable to target shooting.

Hugo Borschardt and Georg Luger were fine designers, but neither could hold a candle to the inventive genius of John M. Browning.

tuckerd1 · 07-27-2004, 07:51 AM

Well said X!

280freak · 07-27-2004, 09:08 AM

Xracer -

I was wonderin' when somebody was goin' to bring that up! Very first thing that occured to me upon starting to read this thread was "Toggle action and blowback are totally different critters; other than grip angle, where's the similarities?"

Txquadhunter · 07-27-2004, 10:54 AM

If GP is thinkin what I think he is the Missing #2 Luger in 45ACP. I'm with him and love to find it in a junk sale.

Like X stated. Do some research you'll find that the Luger was tested for use but failed as in he stated. Luger made 2 (only 2) Chambered in .45ACP they was put thru many of test from mud to salt water With a out come of a non-realilability. It's been a few years back but the History Channel did a show about them. Your jaw would drop at the price if that missing Luger ever showed up.

Remington597 · 07-27-2004, 07:16 PM

Thank you all for the excellent feedback and info, its appreciated. I should have made it more clear that I was approaching it more from an aesthetic perspective rather than strictly function. I just find the Luger/Ruger design very appealing visually and ergonomically. , but as some of you have probably guessed, I have rarelly met a gun that I didn't like. A Bryco /Jennings comes to mind, Lorcin, Davis, and HiPoint, as well as the other Saturday night special garbage, except for the Intratec Protec .25ACPs, I love those.
You guys will be glad to know that what triggered this thread was a combination of me watching Lugers on DVD in Band of Brothers when they took the Frog town of Fouye and also then going plinking with my Ruger MKII, I had a mental connection between the two. It was wonderful. History is the best part of firearms.

gpostal · 07-27-2004, 07:27 PM

Remington597 · 07-27-2004, 07:52 PM

gpostal:
Nice stock!!!

glocknut · 07-27-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpostal

.

Gpostal

I always figured you were a little pussy !!!!!

mike
gn

22WRF · 07-27-2004, 08:10 PM

Erma (Germany) Cloned the Luger in .22, .32 ACP and .380, they were imported by Stoeger Arms.

Remington597 · 07-27-2004, 08:13 PM

22WRF:
Thank you. I appreciate the info.

Brian

22WRF · 07-27-2004, 08:20 PM

2 on the auction

http://www.*********.com/auction/Vie...?Item=21109308

http://www.*********.com/auction/Vie...?Item=21019640

Remington597 · 07-27-2004, 08:31 PM

Thanks, the Ermas are excellent.

glocknut · 07-27-2004, 09:11 PM

07-26-2004, 08:27 PM	#1
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. The 1911 is the most successfull semiauto pistol in history and has been duplicated and cloned by countless gun makers due to its tremendous success, ie., Kimber, Paraordinance, Llama, and dozens upon dozens more. I was shooting my Ruger MKII the other day and could not help but think of Luger Mausers, etc, so I am thinking to myself, why has only Ruger cloned this design? As far as I am aware, they are the only ones who resemble them that closely. Its a functional and ergonomic design and I understand the lower caliber theory and the 1911 being more practical as a military sidearm, but there are plenty of folks who shoot .22 and .32, so why not market to them, for the plinking and security/light duty,backup. (shorter barrel, say from 4.75inches to 3.75 inches,), maybe I'll do it? thats a thought , ya know? Any input. 1940's-50's Mauser Luger type and related WWII modern clones. MKII Ruger 4.75 inch.barrel. -->

07-26-2004, 09:46 PM	#3
glocknut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: THE FORUM MASCOTT... Posts: 12,482	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Well Remmy, if thats true....then I guess glock has been cloned and somewhat cloned..... All kinds of polymer pistols followed the Glock.... Star of spain made a polymer pistol, Cz, S&W, Kel Tek, H&K and many others. In fact due to the popularity of polymer pistols, even Springfield Armory has even made a Glock Clone... mike Glocknut !!! __________________ Where O where are you tonight? Why have you gone and left me alone? I searched to world over and a thought i found true love... You met another and PTThhh you were gone....

07-26-2004, 09:53 PM	#4
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. There is nothing like a pre-emptive strike. I am glad you're taking it in stride. We all missed your unique wit and humor. I think some of the UK and Canadian members who browse here must think we Yankees are all nuts. They are probably right!!!

07-26-2004, 11:36 PM	#5
45shooter Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Pa. Posts: 22	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Actually, Isn't the grip angle the same on the Luger as the Glock? If so, is the Glock is a Ruger clone? Using Glocknuts reasoning, the Luger is the most copied pistol ever since it was the first sucessful autoloading design. Anyway, other than the Ruger, I can't think of anything.

07-27-2004, 12:04 AM	#6
wuzzagrunt V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 369	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Using polymer in the manufacture of pistols lowers manufacturing costs, and increases profits. Glock, and other pistol makers, can build a plastic gun to an attractive price point and still make a buck. A consumer can buy a functional plastic weapon at a much lower lower cost than if he went out and bought a good one. Everybody's happy, everybody wins.

07-26-2004, 08:46 PM	#2
gpostal Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 4,552	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. i have always fancied them ,but they are not practical ,they did have many flaws ,I still would like to run into no2 in .45 acp

07-27-2004, 12:08 AM	#7
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,841	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. glocknut, Just a little history lesson here. HK pioneered this use of polymer materials in the production of handguns more than 30 years ago with the development of the VP70Z and P9S pistols. Glock did not even start making pistols, until the early 80's. HK was the first to use polymer, beating out glock by about 10 years, glock is the copy-cat. Yup, imitation is the best form of flattery. __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

07-27-2004, 05:26 AM	#8
Mabooger V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: N.W. Pa. Posts: 475	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. I think you guys are forgetting about these little gems! Sorta reminds me of a Luger! This one was made in 1952 in New Haven, Conn! Attached Images __________________

07-27-2004, 06:25 AM	#9
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. mabooger: Good point, I almost forgot about the High Standard models.

07-27-2004, 06:36 AM	#10
glocknut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: THE FORUM MASCOTT... Posts: 12,482	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Pickenup It don't matter to me WHO came out with polymer framed pistols first, I'm just glad they did. mike gn __________________ Where O where are you tonight? Why have you gone and left me alone? I searched to world over and a thought i found true love... You met another and PTThhh you were gone....

07-27-2004, 07:44 AM	#11
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Meanwhile, back at the original subject....."why has only Ruger cloned this design?" First off, other than superficial looks, the Ruger and P08 have absolutely nothing in common. The Luger is a toggle-action (Borschardt principle), locked breech action. The Ruger is a straight, simple, blowback action. Not a single internal part of the Ruger in any way resembles a single internal part of the Luger. OTH.....most of the 1911 Clones and copies are just that.....piece by piece copies of the original. Some have a few more bells & whistles, but internally, they're identical copies....except maybe for a long guide rod (which is really unnecessary). Why do people copy the 1911 and not the Luger? The 1911 is simple and easy to manufacture. The Luger is complex and expensive to manufacture. The 1911 functions with a large variety of ammunition. The Luger is very finiky as to ammo......which is why it lost out in the 1904-05 U.S. Military Trials. The GI 1911 was easy to take down, clean, and repair in the field. The Luger was not. The GI 1911 will operate under a wide variety of climate extremes, and will function in dust, dirt, mud, etc. The Luger did not (and does not) function well in these extremes.....which is why it had a short service life. It was replaced by the Walther P38 in 1938....after only 30 years as a first-line issue weapon. The 1911 design responds well to tweeking and accurizing.....the Luger does not. There's nothing anybody can do to make the Luger trigger even marginally acceptable to target shooting. Hugo Borschardt and Georg Luger were fine designers, but neither could hold a candle to the inventive genius of John M. Browning.

07-27-2004, 07:51 AM	#12
tuckerd1 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Paint Rock Valley, Alabama Posts: 3,147	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Well said X!

07-27-2004, 09:08 AM	#13
280freak Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Sitting at my computer Posts: 1,581	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Xracer - I was wonderin' when somebody was goin' to bring that up! Very first thing that occured to me upon starting to read this thread was "Toggle action and blowback are totally different critters; other than grip angle, where's the similarities?"

07-27-2004, 10:54 AM	#14
Txquadhunter TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Nevada, TX Posts: 492	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. If GP is thinkin what I think he is the Missing #2 Luger in 45ACP. I'm with him and love to find it in a junk sale. Like X stated. Do some research you'll find that the Luger was tested for use but failed as in he stated. Luger made 2 (only 2) Chambered in .45ACP they was put thru many of test from mud to salt water With a out come of a non-realilability. It's been a few years back but the History Channel did a show about them. Your jaw would drop at the price if that missing Luger ever showed up. __________________ A few of my pics

07-27-2004, 07:16 PM	#15
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Thank you all for the excellent feedback and info, its appreciated. I should have made it more clear that I was approaching it more from an aesthetic perspective rather than strictly function. I just find the Luger/Ruger design very appealing visually and ergonomically. , but as some of you have probably guessed, I have rarelly met a gun that I didn't like. A Bryco /Jennings comes to mind, Lorcin, Davis, and HiPoint, as well as the other Saturday night special garbage, except for the Intratec Protec .25ACPs, I love those. You guys will be glad to know that what triggered this thread was a combination of me watching Lugers on DVD in Band of Brothers when they took the Frog town of Fouye and also then going plinking with my Ruger MKII, I had a mental connection between the two. It was wonderful. History is the best part of firearms.

07-27-2004, 07:27 PM	#16
gpostal Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 4,552	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. . Attached Images

07-27-2004, 07:52 PM	#17
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. gpostal: Nice stock!!!

07-27-2004, 08:10 PM	#19
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,271	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Erma (Germany) Cloned the Luger in .22, .32 ACP and .380, they were imported by Stoeger Arms. __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

07-27-2004, 08:13 PM	#20
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. 22WRF: Thank you. I appreciate the info. Brian

07-27-2004, 08:20 PM	#21
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,271	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. 2 on the auction http://www.*******.com/auction/Vie...?Item=21109308 http://www.*******.com/auction/Vie...?Item=21019640 __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

07-27-2004, 08:31 PM	#22
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Thanks, the Ermas are excellent.

07-27-2004, 09:11 PM	#23
glocknut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: THE FORUM MASCOTT... Posts: 12,482	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. More like this.... Attached Images __________________ Where O where are you tonight? Why have you gone and left me alone? I searched to world over and a thought i found true love... You met another and PTThhh you were gone....

07-27-2004, 09:17 PM	#24
gpostal Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 4,552	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. . Attached Images

07-28-2004, 07:13 PM	#25
glocknut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: THE FORUM MASCOTT... Posts: 12,482	Re: Imitation is the best form of flattery, but can you answer this question for me. Any time....any time... Attached Images __________________ Where O where are you tonight? Why have you gone and left me alone? I searched to world over and a thought i found true love... You met another and PTThhh you were gone....