Frangible Ammunition - The Firearms Forum

JimD · 03-13-2004, 05:25 PM

Hello All

Has anyone tried any of the various frangible ammunitions currently on the market? I have shot a few brands out there, but so far, only the new PMC Green ammo performed to my liking. I would like to get the opinions of others who have shot any type of commercial frangible ammo for comparison. I want to know of any types you have tried, and where it can be purchased so I can try it as well.

Looking forward to any responses.

btw - i bought the pmc green at http://www.specialtyammo.com

Jimmy

gpostal · 03-13-2004, 05:51 PM

welcome jimD

one of our mebers just happens to own C&R ammo ,and makes a frangible round ,i am sure he will be along to answer any of your questions ,while you wait take a peek at his web site

http://www.candrammo.com/

JimD · 03-13-2004, 06:03 PM

Thank you.

I have already tried his ammo...not bad, but not as good as others.

Smokin Guns · 03-13-2004, 06:09 PM

Welcome to TFF JimD!

Quote:

I have already tried his ammo...not bad, but not as good as others

Jim, What differences are you seeing? Just a Ammo student myself, and always eager to learn...

JimD · 03-13-2004, 06:15 PM

#1 Accuracy was not great

#2 Remaining particulate matter recovered from the witness box had an over abundance of "large" Particles (over 4mm wide) - not quite frangible enough when compared to PMC who's average fragment was less than 1mm...

#3 Lack of onsistency - 8 rounds in a 25 rd shoot session that fired "abnormaly" (i.e. seemed under/overpowered compared to previous round - very noticable)

ACC · 03-13-2004, 07:18 PM

Hey Jim,Welcome aboard

about PMC ammo. during our testing we found the opposite to be true,because of the nylon composition of the bullet(BTW is mfg by mullins bullet) it broke in big projectiles
some averaged in the 4 to 5 mm group,as a matter of fact,the D.O.E. skipped over that bullet,for it over penetrated level2 vests,
and bounce backs from the large pieces at close quarters was negligible.I guess that's why they chose my bullet style of copper and tin(among others).
sorry to hear you had a problem with my ammo,exactly what brand was it?And if you were that dissapointed with it,send it back,with a sales slip or empty box,and I'll send you another,or a box of PMC

gpostal · 03-13-2004, 08:29 PM

i would like to see winchester make that offer

JimD · 03-15-2004, 11:33 AM

C&R Ammo-

Allow me to clear the air: the purpose of my post was not to degrade your ammunition. I was simply stating the results of my personal tests. There were issues with nearly all types of frangible ammo that I used, including PMC. I noticed that different material densities of the backstops had a great effect on remaining particle sizes, and the results of my tests were based on average size of recovered particles. I found the PMC to have the lowest average particle size, however, I do not imply that the remains were all perfect by any means. This was true for all that were tested. As far as accuracy, it seemed to me that there was a lack of consistency from ALL manufacturers, but my results were again based on averages from each product.

As for the DOE/FLETC bids, there were 8 seperate vendors awarded contracts to provide frangible ammunition. This information can be viewed here: http://www2.eps.gov/spg/DOE/index.html

Unfortunately, if any frangible ammunition is loaded too hot, it can and will penetrate soft ballistic armor. This is mostly due to the fact that Kevlar and other such fibers are a mesh, therefore allowing smaller particles to pass right thru. This is especially true in the higher velocity cartridges, such as .223. Pistol cartridges are not loaded to as high velocities as the rifle, so the danger of this is greatly reduced.

I do admire your desire to replace your ammunition, but as I was not the purchaser, I do not require it. (Nor would I ask for such if I was the one who bought it). It was a tough field of competition, and I thought that most vendors, including yours, performed to my satisfaction.

BTW- I am aware that the Longbow Bullets were designed by John Mullins. I am also aware that he is the foremost leading industry expert on Frangible Ammunition. I am sure that if you contact him, he would be glad to share his opinions with you, as he did with me.

ACC · 03-15-2004, 08:01 PM

Jimd
[most vendors, including yours, performed to my satisfaction.]

If you have some sort of credentials to make the above statement
I.E. law enforcemnet training, government training, or in any capacity that would validate your statements, then I would lend credence to any and all statements that you might have about the topics related here in.
BTW I used Long Bow projo's in the past, and although it is a good "lead free" product, I can honestly say that it is not very good in the CQB mode. I use Sinterfire products in my frangible loadings, it is of a sintered metal(98% copper-2% Tin) and actually turns to dust when shot at Close quarters. In all the demo's I have given in the past 6 years, for law enforcement,Gov. agencies, and a host of others, I have never had a 5mm peice bounce back at me. three inches from a plate is really scary with long bow, beleive me!!!Just check my web site, look at the performance page, and then watch the movies, it will give you some good insight into frangible.

JimD · 03-16-2004, 11:02 AM

C&R-

For the last 24 years, I have been employed by various government agencies, chiefly in the arenas of Firearms and Ammunition training and evaluation. I know you do not know me from Jack, so you are just going to have to trust me when I say that my statements do not require validation.
I also know the following: The original Longbow bullet was subject to issues (mostly due to improper loading). When used in the correct configuration, they perform admirably. I have used them extensively in CQB mode, and have not (yet) had any splashback. Firing any projectile at a 3 inch range from a steel slab is un-nerving...manufacturer inconsequential.
I will give you this, you seem to stand fully behind your product, which says a lot. There are some manufacturers that made frangible ammo, then looked upon it as a curse of some sort, failing to adequately market and inform the public as to its virtues and limitations. As you well know, this is shooting yourself in the foot, and drives business to the smaller, yet more passionate companies, such as yours. I truly believe in the merits of frangible ammunition, and would like to see it more readily available to the general public.
On a different note, what's your feeling on the DOE Contract process? All parties I have spoken with have shed some rather interesting light, mainly with the quantitys to be purchased (or lack thereof). Any opinion? (No, I do not work for DOE either)

Country101 · 03-16-2004, 12:08 PM

Can one of you tell me what exactly frangible ammo is? I've never heard of it. Thanks.

Country101

JimD · 03-16-2004, 12:15 PM

Frangible, or “soft,” rounds are designed to break apart when they hit walls or other hard surfaces to prevent ricochets during close-quarters combat.
Frangible bullets are not made from a lead projectile covered with a copper jacket, but are composites of hybrid materials either pressed together at high pressure or glued together with adhesives. Frangible bullets are designed to break up into smaller pieces upon contact with harder objects or surfaces. The polymer-compound round produces no splashback and vastly decreased ricochets.
Frangible bullets will break up into small, less harmful, pieces upon contact with anything harder than they are. This maximizes the round's transfer of energy to the object and minimizes the chances that pieces of the bullet will exit the object at dangerous velocities. Each of the small fragments quickly loses any energy and therefore pose very little danger to any secondary targets. This means that full-power frangible bullets can be shot at target all the way up to muzzle contact without any worries that the bullet or case will ricochet and potentially hurt either the shooter or others.

Country101 · 03-21-2004, 08:54 PM

Thanks for the info, JimD. I appreciate it.

03-13-2004, 06:15 PM	#5
JimD Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10	#1 Accuracy was not great #2 Remaining particulate matter recovered from the witness box had an over abundance of "large" Particles (over 4mm wide) - not quite frangible enough when compared to PMC who's average fragment was less than 1mm... #3 Lack of onsistency - 8 rounds in a 25 rd shoot session that fired "abnormaly" (i.e. seemed under/overpowered compared to previous round - very noticable) Last edited by JimD; 03-13-2004 at 06:35 PM..

03-21-2004, 08:54 PM	#13
Country101 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dardanelle, AR Contributor Posts: 2,026	Thanks for the info, JimD. I appreciate it. __________________ Gainfully employed= shooting somebody elses bullets and getting paid for it Country101

03-13-2004, 05:25 PM	#1
JimD Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10	Frangible Ammunition Hello All Has anyone tried any of the various frangible ammunitions currently on the market? I have shot a few brands out there, but so far, only the new PMC Green ammo performed to my liking. I would like to get the opinions of others who have shot any type of commercial frangible ammo for comparison. I want to know of any types you have tried, and where it can be purchased so I can try it as well. Looking forward to any responses. btw - i bought the pmc green at http://www.specialtyammo.com Jimmy -->

03-13-2004, 05:51 PM	#2
gpostal Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 4,552	welcome jimD one of our mebers just happens to own C&R ammo ,and makes a frangible round ,i am sure he will be along to answer any of your questions ,while you wait take a peek at his web site http://www.candrammo.com/

03-13-2004, 06:03 PM	#3
JimD Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10	Thank you. I have already tried his ammo...not bad, but not as good as others.

03-13-2004, 07:18 PM	#6
ACC V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Nashua NH Posts: 152	Hey Jim,Welcome aboard about PMC ammo. during our testing we found the opposite to be true,because of the nylon composition of the bullet(BTW is mfg by mullins bullet) it broke in big projectiles some averaged in the 4 to 5 mm group,as a matter of fact,the D.O.E. skipped over that bullet,for it over penetrated level2 vests, and bounce backs from the large pieces at close quarters was negligible.I guess that's why they chose my bullet style of copper and tin(among others). sorry to hear you had a problem with my ammo,exactly what brand was it?And if you were that dissapointed with it,send it back,with a sales slip or empty box,and I'll send you another,or a box of PMC

03-13-2004, 08:29 PM	#7
gpostal Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 4,552	i would like to see winchester make that offer

03-15-2004, 11:33 AM	#8
JimD Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10	C&R Ammo- Allow me to clear the air: the purpose of my post was not to degrade your ammunition. I was simply stating the results of my personal tests. There were issues with nearly all types of frangible ammo that I used, including PMC. I noticed that different material densities of the backstops had a great effect on remaining particle sizes, and the results of my tests were based on average size of recovered particles. I found the PMC to have the lowest average particle size, however, I do not imply that the remains were all perfect by any means. This was true for all that were tested. As far as accuracy, it seemed to me that there was a lack of consistency from ALL manufacturers, but my results were again based on averages from each product. As for the DOE/FLETC bids, there were 8 seperate vendors awarded contracts to provide frangible ammunition. This information can be viewed here: http://www2.eps.gov/spg/DOE/index.html Unfortunately, if any frangible ammunition is loaded too hot, it can and will penetrate soft ballistic armor. This is mostly due to the fact that Kevlar and other such fibers are a mesh, therefore allowing smaller particles to pass right thru. This is especially true in the higher velocity cartridges, such as .223. Pistol cartridges are not loaded to as high velocities as the rifle, so the danger of this is greatly reduced. I do admire your desire to replace your ammunition, but as I was not the purchaser, I do not require it. (Nor would I ask for such if I was the one who bought it). It was a tough field of competition, and I thought that most vendors, including yours, performed to my satisfaction. BTW- I am aware that the Longbow Bullets were designed by John Mullins. I am also aware that he is the foremost leading industry expert on Frangible Ammunition. I am sure that if you contact him, he would be glad to share his opinions with you, as he did with me.

03-15-2004, 08:01 PM	#9
ACC V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Nashua NH Posts: 152	Jimd [most vendors, including yours, performed to my satisfaction.] If you have some sort of credentials to make the above statement I.E. law enforcemnet training, government training, or in any capacity that would validate your statements, then I would lend credence to any and all statements that you might have about the topics related here in. BTW I used Long Bow projo's in the past, and although it is a good "lead free" product, I can honestly say that it is not very good in the CQB mode. I use Sinterfire products in my frangible loadings, it is of a sintered metal(98% copper-2% Tin) and actually turns to dust when shot at Close quarters. In all the demo's I have given in the past 6 years, for law enforcement,Gov. agencies, and a host of others, I have never had a 5mm peice bounce back at me. three inches from a plate is really scary with long bow, beleive me!!!Just check my web site, look at the performance page, and then watch the movies, it will give you some good insight into frangible.

03-16-2004, 11:02 AM	#10
JimD Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10	C&R- For the last 24 years, I have been employed by various government agencies, chiefly in the arenas of Firearms and Ammunition training and evaluation. I know you do not know me from Jack, so you are just going to have to trust me when I say that my statements do not require validation. I also know the following: The original Longbow bullet was subject to issues (mostly due to improper loading). When used in the correct configuration, they perform admirably. I have used them extensively in CQB mode, and have not (yet) had any splashback. Firing any projectile at a 3 inch range from a steel slab is un-nerving...manufacturer inconsequential. I will give you this, you seem to stand fully behind your product, which says a lot. There are some manufacturers that made frangible ammo, then looked upon it as a curse of some sort, failing to adequately market and inform the public as to its virtues and limitations. As you well know, this is shooting yourself in the foot, and drives business to the smaller, yet more passionate companies, such as yours. I truly believe in the merits of frangible ammunition, and would like to see it more readily available to the general public. On a different note, what's your feeling on the DOE Contract process? All parties I have spoken with have shed some rather interesting light, mainly with the quantitys to be purchased (or lack thereof). Any opinion? (No, I do not work for DOE either)

03-16-2004, 12:08 PM	#11
Country101 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dardanelle, AR Contributor Posts: 2,026	Can one of you tell me what exactly frangible ammo is? I've never heard of it. Thanks. Country101

03-16-2004, 12:15 PM	#12
JimD Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10	Frangible, or “soft,” rounds are designed to break apart when they hit walls or other hard surfaces to prevent ricochets during close-quarters combat. Frangible bullets are not made from a lead projectile covered with a copper jacket, but are composites of hybrid materials either pressed together at high pressure or glued together with adhesives. Frangible bullets are designed to break up into smaller pieces upon contact with harder objects or surfaces. The polymer-compound round produces no splashback and vastly decreased ricochets. Frangible bullets will break up into small, less harmful, pieces upon contact with anything harder than they are. This maximizes the round's transfer of energy to the object and minimizes the chances that pieces of the bullet will exit the object at dangerous velocities. Each of the small fragments quickly loses any energy and therefore pose very little danger to any secondary targets. This means that full-power frangible bullets can be shot at target all the way up to muzzle contact without any worries that the bullet or case will ricochet and potentially hurt either the shooter or others.