Small 'Puppy' revolver proof mark ID

[Icorps]

Hello Folks,
Years ago my Dad gave me this small revolver. It was amongst his bring backs from WWII. I know its been proofed by Germany and hails from Spain. However I would like to know the artisen who made it if possible.
Thanks for your time,
Joe

[RJay]

Look on the rear if the cylinder, are there any makings there. These were made in vast number by both the Spanish and Belgium, that one looks more Belgium to me.

[Icorps]

Hi Rjay,

There are no other markings on the revolver except for a #3 on the cylinder retainer, cylinder and on the frame under the grips. These were (what I am told) are assembly punches only to keep parts organized. All the marks you see in the pictures are the only ones that are actual proof marks. If you think that the 3 is of some significance I will post those pics.

Thanks

[RJay]

well, here's the problem on these small guns, at least 6 Spanish makers used the name Puppy, and probably at least twice that number of Belgium makers had at least one puppy in their catalog. Both countries exported their products all over Europe and the Americas. Both countries had co-ops, on large orders that were too large for one small shop, they would farm out the work, one shop would make the frames, one the internals and another would put it all together and finish it. Yes , it could be Spanish, But who knows? Sorry abut that. For what it is worth, these small " Puppy's" were made in France, Germany, Belgium and Spain, You could say they were the inexpensive Saturday Night Special of the era. Perhaps other contributors has more or more valid information to share.

[Icorps]

Thanks Rjay,
Yeah these were prolific no doubt. I would like to think that I have seen just about every style over the last 6 months but I am sure I havent. This one was taken off a prostitute whom was going to shoot my dads friend and another serviceman. Never asked why..ha! I am pretty sure its not belgian as they were pretty good at marking thier stuff well. The crown/p in oval points to Spain and possibly the CRUCELEGUI Brothers, Eibar, Spain. However the stamp is not one they used or at least i cant find the actual association.
Thanks for your input, Much appreciated,
Joe

[armoredman]

Velo Dog revolver. Good wall hanger, especially with any documents from the bringback, and a recounting of that story.

[Icorps]

Not sure why they moved this here. I am not looking for the value but for info on proof stamps. That would allow me to have a history to keep with gun. Not for sale, and It does shoot perfectly despite its age, although I don't intend to do that either. Velo's it seems take a velo cartridge this is not chambered for those, 22 short or 5mm for this one. This thing has made the info like a treasure hunt. So many false leads that lead to others...lol
Thanks,
Joe

[jack404]

it looks to match these proof's

[hrf]

Jack that chart is a bit misleading as the double crown over U was used on revolvers as early as 1891, and his gun may date much earlier than 1950

[jack404]

before 1950 did it not have a crown instead of a cross ??

[hrf]

Originally Posted by jack404

before 1950 did it not have a crown instead of a cross ??

?? - There seems to have always been a tiny cross on top of the crowns. And if his father obtained the gun in WW-2 it was certainly made before 1950.

[Jim K]

The crown/U was the final and definitive German proof for guns proved in the finished state. The other crown was the proof mark for revolvers and muzzle loading pistols. So it is not really a double crown - there are two separate marks.

That does not necessarily mean German manufacture; it can also have been proven in order to be sold in Germany. If it had been made in Belgium or any country whose proof was recognized by Germany, it would not have been proven in Germany. I think the gun was made in Spain, which at that time had no mandatory proof, and so it had to be proven in Germany before it could be sold there.

That gun probably dates from before WWI, perhaps from before 1900. Few guns of that type were made or sold after the first war.

It is not a Velo-Dog revolver. A Velo-Dog revolver is one chambered for the Velo-Dog cartridge and that cylinder is far too short for that.

Jim

[revmonday]

pull the grips off and see if there is anything stamped in the frame.

[Icorps]

Good morning,

Jack404 thanks for that chart but as hrf has illuded, that chart is one of those that leads to more questions. From what I have gathered from emails i have gotten from german gunsmiths is the 'double crown' is made when the gun is tested twice, possibly a shoot and drop test, when it passes it gets the double stamp. (in the time period of early 1900 and before).

Revmonday- I have checked the frame and as I said the only mark on the frame is the number 3. These were assembly marks for keeping parts organized and making sure fitted parts stayed together.

Jim - yes the german proof does not mean made in germany. As you said, At this time Spanish marks were not enforced by law. It was more like a mark of pride for the maker. It also made the gun seem more expensive and well made to the buyer. As you mentioned, When the gun was going to be sold in germany, (probably in a large amounts) Gemany would never except a weapon for sale unless it was tested by them. They were a little crazy with marks especially the luger. The 'C/P in Oval' is the key to this. However, its an illusive mark. It appears that it may have never been registered as a makers proof mark. CRUCELEGUI Brothers, Eibar, Spain is where I have been lead to.

Thanks Guys for taking the time to help, I really appreciate your input and look forward to whatever you guys find out,
Joe