The one shot stop myth (FBI article)

[Raven18940]

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15

I was trying to find that FBI article the showed which calibers were most effective, but instead stumbled upon this. To sum up it says that caliber (in the realm of typical pistol calibers anyway) or number of rounds fired doesn't matter, all that counts is whether or not one of those bullets hits in the head. Definately a big blow the .45 mindset, unless you can do quick, tight groups it's not much good it seems.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Ok then.....



LTS

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Ok then.....

Not at all intrigued that the .22 killed nearly as many officers as .357, .40, or .45?

[wolfgang2000]

Remember 99.9% of the time you don't have to shoot normal rational people. They will usually be under the influence of, drugs, alcohol,or adrenaline. These drugs are painkillers. They also alter the preception of the user.

Also consider that in a high precentage of attacks there are multiple attackers.

[delta13soultaker]

Well my old 1SG used to always say..."Aim at the middle where they is the widest..."

Once in Iraq we had a "friendly fire" incident where a E-5 sergeant did something kind of dumb at night and got hosed by a coax mounted M240C (that's 7.62 NATO btw) and he had seven total hits through him, shot from under 200 meters, closer to 100 really. He went home alive and fully recovered by the time we made it back the next year. Sometimes it takes a lot to kill somebody. Maybe crazy people and fools have smaller vital organs...

[45Smashemflat]

I think we might be mixing up "one stop shots" and "killing folks." If you want a person to cease and desist at the impact of the round - like a hostage case with a bad guy's finger on the trigger - you have to take a central nervous system (CNS) shot. ie, the brain bucket.

If you want them to fall down and perhaps stop resisting, go for the upper thorax - your punching holes in the heart and dropping blood pressure. In this case, the bigger rounds help in terms of penetration and energy expended in the target - tissue damage. If they leak enough, fast enough, they quit resisting fast enough. Here the impact of drugs kicks in to make a person resistant to this trauma perhpas long enough to do damage to you. Hence the Mozambique drill of Jeff Cooper fame.

Interestingly, I've been reading some other lit on the pelvic shot - its wide like the thorax - easier to hit - adds to blood pressure loss - and may break a person down, like a shoulder shot on big game.

As delta says - sometime it takes a lot of lead to punch enough holes to do real damage - shot placement is always key.

[delta13soultaker]

I reckon this was all something about no caliber/bullet can be certain to give a one shot stop, five shot stop etc etc. ('Ol Mr. Murphy loves fights more than anything else, don't yall know it.)

I like the "Mozambique drill" (Ready! Controlled fire! Chest! Chest! Face! Fire....Recover!) in theory and shot them until I thought my barrels were blue many times. No kidding once my carbine rails were too hot to hold almost and I wished I had anything mounted under to give me an extra inch from the heat. But still in actual application I never have been confident with it as some people. Mostly because in practical excercises with "rubber ducks", inert replicas, I realized how hard it really is to sight a moving head at any range. The closer the head, the faster it slips out of sight picture etc, sidearm or longarm. Keep in mind, a guy you been shooting in the body may not want to stand still for you, nevermind he is trying to kill you in the first place. Factor in darkness. Factor in tunnel vision/combat stress/doubled heart rate...it gets hard. IR laser/red dot helps some people, sometimes a lot, but not nearly everyone uses that or can in the civilian sector. One thing we did was string balloons up outside and practice for head shots that way. The bobbing and swinging is much like a moving man's head. Combine that with silhouettes for the drill if you're serious about it....just my .02 balloons are cheap, although messy.

While we're talking about pistols not working as expected...
When I went through VIP protection training, we would do lots of drills one-on-one CQB (close range against crazy jihad assassin psycho extreme fundy killer) with inert sidearms. One of the favorite tricks of the instructors was to yell misfire during your engagement. As soon as you grab the slide he may yell "Cold Gun!" wich means it ain't going to work. It's comical if you're role playing as the assassin because you see the Oh Sh** look on the guys face when he realizes he has to take you down by physical force, but if you're the guy being evaluated it ain't cool; you have half a second to switch gears. You think in your head beforehand you know what you would do, but it don't work that way. You're concentrating on using your perfectly engineered handcannon one moment and the next it's a clumsy weight in your hand and you got the most dangerous critter on Earth right in your face. It may be the best lesson I ever took from that detail.

Just something to think about: Forget bullets not working like expected. What's your plan if the pistol goes totally cold right off the start?

[Light Coat]

Never believed in one-shot stops. I have always held to 2 quick taps to the center mass; prepared for 2 more to center.

[45Smashemflat]

That's why I like Peppers and other heavy reactive targets. Folks have a tendancy to act like they train. If they train "bang," look where it went - that's how they will engage. I can't say as I don't believe in one shot stops, but if I happend to get one, I wouldn't know as there would have been many rounds down range before I went to check. Set Peppers up to require multiple fast hits from a major calibre - then you have to accurately bang away at it until you push it over.

Good points Delta - never a good thing when your handgun turns into a hammer.....

[delta13soultaker]

You're talking about the steel popper targets...those are damn good.

I seem to always end up training on plastic pop-ups, which refine your time real well but they are of course down after each hit, even sometimes if you splash enough dirt on them with low misses.