223 reload question

[jhanhart]

Hi all just a quick question. I'm reloading 223. Rem cases with 55 grain Hornady fmj. Varget powder. When I add 25.5 grains of powder in cases it almost fills the case up. You can still put the bullet in and set it but you can't hear the powder shaking around inside. I'm new to this I've reloaded 100 9mm 50 270 rounds had no problem they shot great. But I was just wondering if this was to much powder. Thanks

[Dirtypacman]

I have not adopted the find the right powder and load recipe that allows you to fill the brass to its max, but others have and don't seem to have any problems. I know for a fact a few of my reloading friends do so on pistol calibers as to assure there is never a double charge or overcharge - it would be very easy to spot when the brass/cartridge overflows.

[steve4102]

It is called a compressed load. Loads become compressed when the powder of choice has a burn rate that is on the slow side for cartridge. Varget is on the slow side for the 223. That does not mean it is a bad choice, on the contrary it is a good choice for the 223. It just means you have to add more powder to get the same results as if you were using a faster burning powder.

Compressed loads are desired by many handloaders (me) and usually produce ammo that is both accurate a very consistent.

[ChuckR]

jhanhart,
Are you sure that you have .223 rem casings and not 5.56 Nato cases?(the Nato cases have a + with a circle around it on the head.) I ask this as I was loading for .223 and in one instance I noticed the powder (Varget) came almost to the top. I dumped the powder and recharged the case again. It did the same thing, when I inspected the case head, it had the Nato symbol on it. The rest of my cases where .223 rem and they were filling about half way up the shoulder. I am assuming the reason for the difference in space is that the Nato cases are a little thicker and does not have the space volume as the regular .223 rem has. I do not know if filling the Nato cases fuller with the same amount of powder is a problem or not. Others with more knowledge can answer that. Hope this helps.

Chuck

[steve4102]

Chuck, Your experience with the 5.56 case is unusual. Most 5.56 Military brass has more case capacity that 223 Civilian brass. Did you by chance get a good look inside that Nato case and see if there was anything unusual like polishing media, dirt, mud or maybe a big ass spider?

[JLA]

Compressed loads are common with Varget in the .223. 25.5 sounds about right for a 55 gr bullet in .223.

[gdmoody]

I don't particularly care for compressed loads myself! With 25.5 grains of Varget, you are getting pretty close to the max load for 55 grain bullets, so Hornady #7 says. Just a suggestion, but you might want to look at the thread (up in the sticky area) that talk about ladder tests. You would probably be a lot better off if you started at the beginning weight of powder and work up until you find something that shoots good in your rifle.

I was loading some 34 and some 45 grain .223s the other day and the Lyman #49 calls for start load of 25.2 an a max of 28.0 of Varget (for 36 grain). As I was loading up my ladder test ammo I found out that some of my PMC brass would not even hold 26.5 grains of powder, much less 28!! I am going to get me some IMR-4198 so I won't have compressed loads (the range is 20.7 to 23)

[rcairflr]

IMR-4198 is a fast burning powder, so the pressure can spike very rapidly and as such can be a more dangerous load than a compressed load with a slower burning powder like Varget using a 55 grain bullet. I think H335 would be a better choice than IMR-4198.

[The Duke]

janhart...That is the very same load and components I generally load for my AR platforms...Fired a few hundred without problem..I like it..

[gdmoody]

Originally Posted by rcairflr

IMR-4198 is a fast burning powder, so the pressure can spike very rapidly and as such can be a more dangerous load than a compressed load with a slower burning powder like Varget using a 55 grain bullet. I think H335 would be a better choice than IMR-4198.

Thanks for the info, I saw the 4198 listed in the Lyman 49 manual and it was a thought I might try. I will look at H335 loads and consider that, I do like Varget and use it more than any thing else, it just works in just about every rifle I load for.

[ChuckR]

Steve4102,
Thanks for the input, no I did not inspect the inside of the case. I usually do a inpection before I start reloading and did not think about it when the problem came up. I will re-examine the casing and take a look inside and see if there is a problem. I just ASSUMED it was the Nato casing as I have not reloaded Nato casings before. Thanks again.

Chuck

[Regular Joe]

You were already right. NATO cases are generally thicker, and therefore hold LESS powder. The guy who says otherwise needs a few more decades of study.
The other main difference between commercial and NATO is that NATO brass has slightly longer necks. Pay attention to pressure signs if you approach max loads with NATO brass. NATO loads are rated for about 6,000 psi higher pressure than commercial .223, but if your rifle is marked ".223", stay with a little less powerful load. Since NATO brass IS a little longer, pay attention to case length, and trim as necessary.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Regular Joe

You were already right. NATO cases are generally thicker, and therefore hold LESS powder. The guy who says otherwise needs a few more decades of study.
The other main difference between commercial and NATO is that NATO brass has slightly longer necks. Pay attention to pressure signs if you approach max loads with NATO brass. NATO loads are rated for about 6,000 psi higher pressure than commercial .223, but if your rifle is marked ".223", stay with a little less powerful load. Since NATO brass IS a little longer, pay attention to case length, and trim as necessary.

Now now, no need to be rude, especially when you are mistaken.
This is from the experts at Sierra.
The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases,it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often ha ve significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly.

You can also go here and read all about the 223/5.56 case and case capacity. You will find that the Military brass tested has more case capacity than civilian brass.
http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html


Then of course there is this.



I took Sierra's advice and measure case capacity in grains of H20 myself. I have three kinds of brass, LC, Remington and GFL(Fiocchi). I tested five of each and took the average.

GFL dry weight-102.4gr
With H20-131.4
Case capacity in grains of H20-29gr

Remington Dry weight-95.2gr
With H20-125.1gr
Case capacity in grains of H20-29.9gr

LC 5.56 Dry weight-96.3gr
With H20-126.7gr
Case capacity in grains of H20-30.4gr.

The other main difference between commercial and NATO is that NATO brass has slightly longer necks.

You are mistaken here as well. The external dimensions of 223 and 5.56 are identical. The chamber of the 5.56 has a longer throat, but the case is the same. As this is a reloading forum, find us a set of 5.56 dies that allow for this difference in case dimensions you speak of?

[rcairflr]

I just did a side by side comparison of my NATO spec brass and Win, R-P and Hornady brass. Since we are in the reloading thread, all brass was resized and trimmed to 1.751 inches.

My findings were that most brass for all manufacturers weighed from 91-94 grains and when comparing the volume using TAC powder there was basically no difference in volume between the NATO and commercial brass. For the samples I used, the NATO spec brass at 91 grains held more powder than the commercial.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of 5.56 having a higher pressure rating is because the 5.56 has a looser chamber than the 2.23 and as such can handle higher pressures without sticking cases. The brass weather commercial or NATO spec can handle higher than the rated specs, I've heard in excess of 75,000 PSI.

As far as dimensions, my caliper, which is good to 5/10,000 of an inch, could not tell the difference between the NATO and commercial cases.

[steve4102]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of 5.56 having a higher pressure rating is because the 5.56 has a loser chamber than the 2.23 and as such can handle higher pressures without sticking cases

The 5.56 has a slightly larger chamber than the 223, but this is not so it can handle higher pressure ammo. The 5.56 chamber is larger so that it will feed reliable in a dirty battle field situation. This is also one of the reasons the the long throat of the 5.56. It's the long throat of the 5.56 that allows to a higher pressure round. Think Weatherby chambers.

[rcairflr]

Originally Posted by steve4102

The 5.56 has a slightly larger chamber than the 223, but this is not so it can handle higher pressure ammo. The 5.56 chamber is larger so that it will feed reliable in a dirty battle field situation. This is also one of the reasons the the long throat of the 5.56. It's the long throat of the 5.56 that allows to a higher pressure round. Think Weatherby chambers.

Steve, thanks for correcting me.

[BlackEagle]

I am using 3 kinds of .223 cases: FNM and PPU are civilian cases; PMC is military. I put an empty case on my balance, zeroed it, and added water until it was full, for several cases of each type. Weighing in grams, 1g=1ml of water.

Average case volumes:
FNM: 1.97 ml
PPU: 2.02 ml
PMC: 1.89 ml
The thicker walls of the military cases mean less interior volume. The things I have read indicate you should use 10% less powder in military cases than in civilian cases, as a rule of thumb.

I have found that the best load for my rifle is:
FNM: 24.4 gr Vihtavouri N140
PPU: 24.7 gr N140
PMC: 22.8 gr N140

[JLA]

George, grab you a jug of W748 if you want non compressed .223s. Max loads are right at 90% density.

And ive got some of my best .223 groups with W748

[RustyFN]

The other main difference between commercial and NATO is that NATO brass has slightly longer necks.

Wouldn't the case be the same after being sized with a 223 die?

[rcairflr]

Originally Posted by RustyFN

Wouldn't the case be the same after being sized with a 223 die?

After resizing and trimming, yes it would be the same size.

[gdmoody]

Originally Posted by JLA

George, grab you a jug of W748 if you want non compressed .223s. Max loads are right at 90% density.

And ive got some of my best .223 groups with W748

I have some Win748 and I used it in .223 back in 2008. I didn't write any notes in my reloading log, so I don't even know if I ever even shot it, or it may be some that my son grabbed up on a range visit and shot it up. I have always loaded 55 grain bullets and now I am trying different bullet weights. There is no data for W748 on the light weight bullets (36 & 40 grain) but I will try it out again when I load up some 62 & 69 grain bullets.

[Regular Joe]

OK fine: I don't know nothing. My procedure for charging cases and seating bullets is to throw the charge, visually check the powder level in the case, and then place the case in the press to seat the bullet. With 55 gr. bulk bullets, I use mixed brass. When I check the powder level, I guess the headstamp, and then check that after the bullet is seated to see if I was right.
Invariably, Lake City brass fills more than any other I use. Some brands are close, like BVAC and PMC, and some are much less dense, like Federal and Winchester. That's all I need to know about which has more capacity.
Keep in mind that Mil Spec powder is NOT the same stuff that's available to us, and huge testing/proving is done to ensure uniformity, pressure; etc...
All of the filling with water and so forth is pretty meaningless, unless you're just curious. What does matter is that you remain at or below max. pressure.
The actual specs for Mil. NATO brass certainly IS a bit different. Refer to your Sierra manual. While the necks aren't longer, trimming is less critical, due to the freebore.
Mil. chambers aren't necessarily "looser". If that were the case, small base resizing would not be important.

[steve4102]

All of the filling with water and so forth is pretty meaningless, unless you're just curious. What does matter is that you remain at or below max. pressure.

That's the key, "Pressure".
Lets take a look at the OP's original load, 55gr FMJ with 25.5gr of Varget. Now lets see what happens with different internal case volume.
According to the chart above Lapua (old) has the least case capacity in 28gr of H20, while LC has the highest in 30.6. Using LC brass(30.6gr) QL calculates this load at 42,695 psi. With the Lapua(28gr) brass QL calculates this load at 52,593 psi.
If we bring the OP's start charge of 25.5gr up to Hodgdon's published Max of 27.5gr Varget we get the following.
LC brass= 54,555 psi
Lapua brass= 69,404 psi
What it all means is case capacity can affect "Pressure" what is safe with one headstamp may be way over pressure in another.

Accuracy can also be greatly affected when switching from one headstamp to another.

While the necks aren't longer, trimming is less critical, due to the freebore.

Please do not confuse Chamber length with throat dimensions and free bore. Free bore and throat angles have little to do with chamber length. Take a look at the attached reamer drawing. Although different manufactures may vary a bit you will notice that neck length "M" is fairly consistent between 223 and 5.56 with the Clymer 5.56 reamer having the shortest neck.
http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
Assuming max case length is less critical in a 5.56 could cause unwanted pressure issues. Whether 223 or 5.56 it's best to keep your brass between 1.750-1.760. Or one can purchase a Chamber Length Gauge to know exactly how long your chamber is.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pi...er-Length-Gage

[JLA]

beat me to it Steve .

Chamber length and freebore are commonly confused. The chamber ends with a step at max case length and if the cases exceed max case length they MUST be trimmed to avoid dangerous pressure spikes. regardless of how much freebore you have. All freebore is is the space between the end of the chamber and the start of the rifling.

AKA leade. as in the leade leads the bullet to the rifling. Having a long leade generally means your rifle will be a bit more tolerant to high pressures.. Again, think WBY chambers..

[218bee]

Count me +1 on W748. I have never found anything that beats W748 in the 223. There are many good powders that will work.....But W748 seems to give the best loading density / accuracy / is clean burning....and flows through a powder measure very uniformly. Works well in the black rifles and top-notch accuracy in a good bolt gun..........Just my $.02......Don in SC