What's the best 1st Full Auto? - The Firearms Forum

45Smashemflat · 02-14-2005, 07:29 AM

OK, so its a new year and the planning can begin on the "big buy" for 2005. I've been toying with a class III gun for a while, but have just never made the leap.

What do the experts think is the best way to cut your teeth? Try a cheap MAC? They seem to be the cheapest way to get into full auto. What about reliability and investment value? I hear they break.

STEN, S&W 76, ? what else is an "economical" full auto? I REALLY want a Thompson, now that I've shot one - but boy howdy! they are proud of those!!

LIKTOSHOOT · 02-14-2005, 09:11 PM

STEN....Nope... S&W 76......HELL NO!!!!
Mac`s are tough, UZI`s tain`t bad.
A180 is cheap and a blast.....".22 cal" and up to 220 round drums----SMOKIN HOT! If tuned.

LTS

offeror · 02-14-2005, 10:43 PM

In my case, I'll go after the Uzi carbine. Proven design, well balanced and controllable, and at the lower end of the price points, as good SMGs go. A little more expensive than the Mac, yes, but less than most other modern SMGs.

I know a guy who bought a Mac in 9mm for defense and he seems very satisfied. I don't think you'd find a Mac breaking on you -- don't know where you heard that.

I prefer to start with the Uzi, not only for the above practical reasons, but also for the fine reputation of the gun, its use by U.S. organizations including the Secret Service, etc. etc. With the Uzi I get pride of ownership AND excellent shooting characteristics with or without the stock in use. And there are plenty of spare parts and cheap magazines. My only concern is that I'd prefer a .45 and mags may be harder to find for that.

As for investment value, assuming you buy a reputable product, it should hold its value, as SMGs generally do. They are sought after, but there are also enough of them to serve the relatively small private market. So I'd count on getting my money out if I ever needed to, but not retiring on the resale money.

Admin · 02-15-2005, 02:40 AM

UZI with subgun +P+ ammo is fantastic, accuracy is very good and it
amazes people when they see that an UZI (with real subgun ammo)
will hit it's target fairly well and with plenty of energy, as well.

UZI .45ACP conversion shoots great too however, the standard IMI
45-conversion only holds 16-rounds per mag, but there is another
non-IMI UZI .45ACP conversion that is available and uses a MAC
type lower and takes standard M3 Grease Gun 30-round mags.

I'd say that if you do decide to purchase an UZI then you
should start shopping around for it asap, because they are
getting pricey these days and the prices have just about
doubled as to what they were just a few years ago.

Just my .02

Tac

45Smashemflat · 02-15-2005, 07:12 AM

Sounds like the UZI is winning right now - I have looked at a few as well. What does it mean that they are "registered as 9mm, 45, and 22" - do class threes have that level of detail? I guess it not like a AR. Having said that - if a person had a M16 lower, is it illegal to mount any other upper on it? (Assume the M16 lower is all legit and papered.)

I too like the 45 and I have plenty of ammo - going 9mm means I have to add another SKU to the ammo inventory.... Not sure that's a deal breaker, but it is something to consider.

OK - UZI dudes - whats the story on Vector? Better or worse than a IMI?

offeror · 02-15-2005, 06:55 PM

The Vector is a well-done parts gun. You can actually make an Uzi yourself by buying a finished receiver (wholesale about $300) and an IMI parts kit (about $225-250 in excellent condition out of Shotgun News), and that's what Vector does, with embellishments to the fit and finish that you probably wouldn't think of at home. The Vectors are reasonably priced so unless you really want a home project, I think it is easier just to buy a parts gun from them and be done with it (assuming you want a good parts gun). They do a good job by all accounts, in my experience anyway.

IMI guns are all original (not rebuilt, that is). They are generally more expensive as a result.

I don't know if Vector makes auto guns or not, but if they do, I'd say you'd have a good shooter, which is what counts for practical use. If you want something with more historical and collectible significance, you might prefer to find an IMI Model A or Model B.

stash247 · 02-15-2005, 09:00 PM

The A -180 sure is quiet, cheap to feed, and you don't have to shag brass!
As to the Vector, or any other parts gun, except for governmental agencies, and Class III dealers, as a sample( Non Transferable), the receiver had to exist in fact, and on paper, before the "machine gun Ban" took effect; 1984, I think.
That being so, there are no $300, registered receivers, Uzi or otherwise, on the market. Semi's, yes, but we're talking full auto here!

45Smashemflat · 02-16-2005, 07:45 AM

The A 180 is that banjo topped 22, right?

I've seen Vectors in full auto going for about $7Large.

Haven't priced a A-180, I did see a AR-7 that was Class III, never knew they made one of those full auto... Those are both Stoner orignal designs, right?

45Smashemflat · 02-19-2005, 01:03 PM

Studied up on'em a bit. The A-180 was designed by Dick Casull - of .454 fame, not Stoner or AR fame....

stash247 · 02-19-2005, 06:41 PM

Don't know who designed it, but the fundamentals look tremendously like the Browning .22 Auto.
The Browning feeds thru the stock, spits empties out the bottom; the A-180 takes ammo via a top mounted drum, also spits the empties, below.
In both cases, one has an ambidexterous weapon, with NO burns on the neck from hot brass.
Would be interesting to know from where Dick Casull got the ideas; he's a GREAT firearms engineer, i.e., strength of materials, ease of manufacture, etc, but I did/do not know he was a designer of new systems, rather, he seems to be a REFINER of older designs.
I mean in no way to quarrel with your statement as to the origin of the A-180, except to wonder about the path to production, of the design.
I still like it a LOT! Not enough to fill out all the forms and cards, but A LOT!

45Smashemflat · 02-20-2005, 12:58 PM

Given the cost of ammo - the A-180 looks like a good deal, even when the entry price is 7-8 grand.

Based on my limited research, it seems Dick Casul did the design work and then had the gun made over in europe (Austria?) and marketed here. Seems like the gun had a following by prison guards - fairly intimidating, given the volume of fire. Eventually it was determined that this great rate of fire chewed through most soft body armor of the day and that gave it a bit of a bad rap. There is a company that is still making the gun in semi auto.

Hmm, still thinking.. haven't made the leap yet.

SOT_II · 03-02-2005, 11:06 AM

Best is something that works most of the time, isn't hard to figure out, and has an AMPLE supply of parts and mags.

My vote would be for a Mac.
They still are under $4000, they are easy to work on, you cna buy all kinds of crap for them, the ammo can be bought in bulk (9mm, 45).
You cna do a slow fire conversion and most of the cans for them are pretty cheap.

iamhe · 03-11-2005, 05:50 PM

Norrell modified, silenced 10/22 Ruger. What a blast. Go to Knob Creek KY, and testfire everything that you can. The American 180 .22 is a jamomatic.

ROTCC · 06-04-2005, 12:51 PM

I'd say an AR-15 with a .22lr conversion. A LOT more bang for your buck, and you can always fit the bolt with the Norrel type of cyclic rate reducer, to get the cyclic rate down from 30 shots a second to about 15 shots per second.

02-14-2005, 07:29 AM	#1
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	What's the best 1st Full Auto? OK, so its a new year and the planning can begin on the "big buy" for 2005. I've been toying with a class III gun for a while, but have just never made the leap. What do the experts think is the best way to cut your teeth? Try a cheap MAC? They seem to be the cheapest way to get into full auto. What about reliability and investment value? I hear they break. STEN, S&W 76, ? what else is an "economical" full auto? I REALLY want a Thompson, now that I've shot one - but boy howdy! they are proud of those!! -->

02-14-2005, 09:11 PM	#2
LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 9,367	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? STEN....Nope... S&W 76......HELL NO!!!! Mac`s are tough, UZI`s tain`t bad. A180 is cheap and a blast.....".22 cal" and up to 220 round drums----SMOKIN HOT! If tuned. LTS

02-14-2005, 10:43 PM	#3
offeror Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 586	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? In my case, I'll go after the Uzi carbine. Proven design, well balanced and controllable, and at the lower end of the price points, as good SMGs go. A little more expensive than the Mac, yes, but less than most other modern SMGs. I know a guy who bought a Mac in 9mm for defense and he seems very satisfied. I don't think you'd find a Mac breaking on you -- don't know where you heard that. I prefer to start with the Uzi, not only for the above practical reasons, but also for the fine reputation of the gun, its use by U.S. organizations including the Secret Service, etc. etc. With the Uzi I get pride of ownership AND excellent shooting characteristics with or without the stock in use. And there are plenty of spare parts and cheap magazines. My only concern is that I'd prefer a .45 and mags may be harder to find for that. As for investment value, assuming you buy a reputable product, it should hold its value, as SMGs generally do. They are sought after, but there are also enough of them to serve the relatively small private market. So I'd count on getting my money out if I ever needed to, but not retiring on the resale money. __________________ The Second Amendment does not exist to protect the gun rights you like. It exists to protect the gun rights you hate. Last edited by offeror; 02-14-2005 at 10:50 PM..

02-15-2005, 02:40 AM	#4
Admin Site Network Webmaster Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Site Control Panel Posts: 11,654	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? UZI with subgun +P+ ammo is fantastic, accuracy is very good and it amazes people when they see that an UZI (with real subgun ammo) will hit it's target fairly well and with plenty of energy, as well. UZI .45ACP conversion shoots great too however, the standard IMI 45-conversion only holds 16-rounds per mag, but there is another non-IMI UZI .45ACP conversion that is available and uses a MAC type lower and takes standard M3 Grease Gun 30-round mags. I'd say that if you do decide to purchase an UZI then you should start shopping around for it asap, because they are getting pricey these days and the prices have just about doubled as to what they were just a few years ago. Just my .02 Tac

02-15-2005, 07:12 AM	#5
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? Sounds like the UZI is winning right now - I have looked at a few as well. What does it mean that they are "registered as 9mm, 45, and 22" - do class threes have that level of detail? I guess it not like a AR. Having said that - if a person had a M16 lower, is it illegal to mount any other upper on it? (Assume the M16 lower is all legit and papered.) I too like the 45 and I have plenty of ammo - going 9mm means I have to add another SKU to the ammo inventory.... Not sure that's a deal breaker, but it is something to consider. OK - UZI dudes - whats the story on Vector? Better or worse than a IMI?

02-15-2005, 06:55 PM	#6
offeror Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 586	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? The Vector is a well-done parts gun. You can actually make an Uzi yourself by buying a finished receiver (wholesale about $300) and an IMI parts kit (about $225-250 in excellent condition out of Shotgun News), and that's what Vector does, with embellishments to the fit and finish that you probably wouldn't think of at home. The Vectors are reasonably priced so unless you really want a home project, I think it is easier just to buy a parts gun from them and be done with it (assuming you want a good parts gun). They do a good job by all accounts, in my experience anyway. IMI guns are all original (not rebuilt, that is). They are generally more expensive as a result. I don't know if Vector makes auto guns or not, but if they do, I'd say you'd have a good shooter, which is what counts for practical use. If you want something with more historical and collectible significance, you might prefer to find an IMI Model A or Model B. __________________ The Second Amendment does not exist to protect the gun rights you like. It exists to protect the gun rights you hate.

02-15-2005, 09:00 PM	#7
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? The A -180 sure is quiet, cheap to feed, and you don't have to shag brass! As to the Vector, or any other parts gun, except for governmental agencies, and Class III dealers, as a sample( Non Transferable), the receiver had to exist in fact, and on paper, before the "machine gun Ban" took effect; 1984, I think. That being so, there are no $300, registered receivers, Uzi or otherwise, on the market. Semi's, yes, but we're talking full auto here! __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

02-16-2005, 07:45 AM	#8
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? The A 180 is that banjo topped 22, right? I've seen Vectors in full auto going for about $7Large. Haven't priced a A-180, I did see a AR-7 that was Class III, never knew they made one of those full auto... Those are both Stoner orignal designs, right?

02-19-2005, 01:03 PM	#9
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? Studied up on'em a bit. The A-180 was designed by Dick Casull - of .454 fame, not Stoner or AR fame....

02-19-2005, 06:41 PM	#10
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? Don't know who designed it, but the fundamentals look tremendously like the Browning .22 Auto. The Browning feeds thru the stock, spits empties out the bottom; the A-180 takes ammo via a top mounted drum, also spits the empties, below. In both cases, one has an ambidexterous weapon, with NO burns on the neck from hot brass. Would be interesting to know from where Dick Casull got the ideas; he's a GREAT firearms engineer, i.e., strength of materials, ease of manufacture, etc, but I did/do not know he was a designer of new systems, rather, he seems to be a REFINER of older designs. I mean in no way to quarrel with your statement as to the origin of the A-180, except to wonder about the path to production, of the design. I still like it a LOT! Not enough to fill out all the forms and cards, but A LOT! __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

02-20-2005, 12:58 PM	#11
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? Given the cost of ammo - the A-180 looks like a good deal, even when the entry price is 7-8 grand. Based on my limited research, it seems Dick Casul did the design work and then had the gun made over in europe (Austria?) and marketed here. Seems like the gun had a following by prison guards - fairly intimidating, given the volume of fire. Eventually it was determined that this great rate of fire chewed through most soft body armor of the day and that gave it a bit of a bad rap. There is a company that is still making the gun in semi auto. Hmm, still thinking.. haven't made the leap yet.

03-02-2005, 11:06 AM	#12
SOT_II V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: The Berkshires Posts: 80	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? Best is something that works most of the time, isn't hard to figure out, and has an AMPLE supply of parts and mags. My vote would be for a Mac. They still are under $4000, they are easy to work on, you cna buy all kinds of crap for them, the ammo can be bought in bulk (9mm, 45). You cna do a slow fire conversion and most of the cans for them are pretty cheap. __________________ CQB Arms

03-11-2005, 05:50 PM	#13
iamhe Former Guest Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? Norrell modified, silenced 10/22 Ruger. What a blast. Go to Knob Creek KY, and testfire everything that you can. The American 180 .22 is a jamomatic.

06-04-2005, 12:51 PM	#14
ROTCC Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 42	Re: What's the best 1st Full Auto? I'd say an AR-15 with a .22lr conversion. A LOT more bang for your buck, and you can always fit the bolt with the Norrel type of cyclic rate reducer, to get the cyclic rate down from 30 shots a second to about 15 shots per second.