9x23 ammo? - The Firearms Forum

belercous · 12-29-2009, 10:35 PM

I have an Astra Unceta model 1921 (400). It is marked 9mm (38). I have seen 9x23 ammo for sale, but from what I'm gathering there are many different loads in 9x23. Some are called Largo, some Bergmann-Bayard, some Steyr, 38 super, some just 9x23. It seems that the 9x23 Winchester is much hotter than the 9mm Largo. What's up with all these different loadings? Seems like this is a problem waiting to happen, if it hasn't already.

What is the ranking of these cartridges in order of their pressures?

Which of these rounds are safe to fire in my gun?

I have also been led to believe that my pistol will chamber and fire shorter 9mm rounds, such as 9mm Luger, 9x18, 9x18 Makarov and .380, is this true? I have no intention of shooting shorter ammo, but inquiring minds want to know. Thank you for your attention in this matter.

cakes · 12-29-2009, 11:04 PM

Your Astra was designed for the 9mm Largo. If it was mine, I wouldn't shoot anything in it besides Largo or Bergmann loads.

berto64 · 12-30-2009, 12:24 AM

Eggszactly.

I have some 400's and Star mod. B pistols and they all take 9mm Largo or the 9x23 Bergmann Bayard round.

They are a hoot to shoot, much more powerful than 9x19 parabellum. Louder too.

Bill DeShivs · 12-30-2009, 01:08 AM

Your gun would probably chamber and fire:
.380-it will bulge the cases and won't cycle the slide.
9mm parabellum- it will bulge the cases.
9mm BB/largo/Steyr-will work fine.
.38 auto-will work fine.
.38 Super auto- the gun will probably blow up.
9X23 Winchester- the gun will definitely blow up.

All these rounds MUST be fed from the magazine to work. None but the Largo/Bergmann/Steyr are recommended. Your gun will not chamber 9mm Makarov.

berto64 · 12-30-2009, 02:46 PM

Bill,

I was given to understand that 38 Super was not recommended due to higher chamber pressures of the round. Possibly too high for the older metallurgy of the chambers.

I know the 38 will fit perfectly in the chamber but it is also hotter than Largo.

jondar · 12-30-2009, 06:30 PM

I've fired .38 ACP and 9mm Steyr, and a few .38 Super in my 400 with no troubles. Don't fire 9mm Luger as due to the shorter case, the only thing holding the round against the firing pin is the extractor and after a while you will have to replace the extractor due to stress. I've settled on the Largo cartridge and it is probably the one to shoot. I've read from some sources that the military Largo round made by the Santa Barbara arsenal in Spain is too hot for the pistol. Sadly, that's all that seems to be available. Blazer made a run of this cartridge a few years ago and some are still available, but do not know where.

belercous · 12-31-2009, 08:36 PM

Thanks guys. I also have a Star model B chambered for the same round and I'll assume that it also should only shoot the Largo, B-B, and Steyr round.
What guns fire the 9x23 Winchester round? I haven't even heard of it until I looked for ammo on the Astra.

Bill DeShivs · 12-31-2009, 10:53 PM

Your model B should be 9mm parabellum.
The 9X23 was developed for the competition shooters.

belercous · 12-31-2009, 11:07 PM

Oops, my mistake. You are correct Bill, it was my Star Modelo Super I was thinking of. It has a pretty worn barrel, and as I recall, I could not find a replacement barrel for it. It wasn't a very accurate shooter. The Model "B" I haven't yet shot, but yes, it is a 9mm Luger.

Oldeyes · 01-01-2010, 09:07 AM

There are perhaps others, but the only factory pistol that I ever saw that was chambered for the 9X23 Winchester round was a Walther PP Super. It was a heavy duty, 70's design, relatively compact pistol. I was told at the time that the pistol was designed to be a German police special operations weapon. Once you looked up the spec's for the factory Winchester ammo it looked as if it would do the special operations job in spades. Too bad the round never caught on over here and as a result the few loadings of commercial ammo were pretty pricey. The advent of the 10mm round seemingly did a pretty decent job of burying the 9X23 Winchester. The 9X23 Winchester round today occupies a specialty high powered 9mm niche in the marketplace.

Jim K · 01-01-2010, 09:44 PM

Whoa! The Walther PP Super was NEVER chambered for the 9x23 anything. It was chambered for the 9mm Ultra, aka the 9x18 Police. It has about the same case length as the 9mm Makarov, but the Makarov has a larger diameter and the cartridges are not interchangeable.

The idea that pistols chambered for 9mm Largo will fire any 9mm and were designed to do so is a myth and a dangerous one. In fact, they were originally designed and intended to fire one cartridge, the 9mm Largo (9mm Bergmann-Bayard). The tapered 9mm Luger may wedge in the chamber, and the .380 ACP might be caught by the extractor, and the breech face might be large enough to take the semi-rimmed .38 ACP or .38 Super Auto, but that is a lot of "mights" and NONE of those rounds is correct, and might not even work. The Astra 400 was not designed to use any of them, not even, as one writer said, in an emergency. Some Star and Llama pistols made for export to South America and the U.S. were modified to accept .38 ACP; those are marked 9mm/38.

Jim

belercous · 01-01-2010, 10:45 PM

Jim: My Astra-Unceta is marked "9mm (38)". I realize this pistol was not intended to fire 380 or 9mm Parabellum, but I have read that they will fire them as the extractor holds the round against the breech instead of the round getting its head spacing from seating in the chamber. I know its not right, but I hear it will shoot the shorter cartidges.
I also did not know the 9mm Parabellum was tapered, so I just learned something. (Ouch! My brain hurts.) Thanks.

Oldeyes · 01-02-2010, 06:17 AM

Jim K - Sorry sir, my bad. You are correct on the chambering for the Walther PP Super.. My somewhat aged 'recollector' had an excess of cob webbing in it.

I confused the somewhat rare 9X23 Winchester with the even more rare 9mm Ultra. The Walther PP Super that I saw had a quite nice feel in the hand to it, but the scarcity of ammo was a real serious detractor to any potential thoughts of practical ownership. The only ammo that I ever saw for the Walther PP Super was some rather pricey FMJ rounds from Geco.

Jim K · 01-02-2010, 01:13 PM

I have a PP Super and a batch of that Geco ammo. The gun is not just a rechambered PP, it is bigger and heavier all around than the normal PP and the round seems pretty powerful, with recoil almost to the Makarov level. The design was in response to a (West) German police request for a pistol between the 9mm Kurz (.380) and the 9mm Parabellum in power. They succeeded but with conditions changing, the police decided to go with the 9mm P and the PP Supers were sold off.

Jim

jondar · 01-02-2010, 03:12 PM

[QUOTE: I have a PP Super and a batch of that Geco ammo. The gun is not just a rechambered PP, it is bigger and heavier all around than the normal PP and the round seems pretty powerful, with recoil almost to the Makarov level

Jim[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, that's not very "powerful". There's only a hundred fps or so seperating the Makarov and the .380 ACP.

12-29-2009, 10:35 PM	#1
belercous Former Guest Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 195	9x23 ammo? I have an Astra Unceta model 1921 (400). It is marked 9mm (38). I have seen 9x23 ammo for sale, but from what I'm gathering there are many different loads in 9x23. Some are called Largo, some Bergmann-Bayard, some Steyr, 38 super, some just 9x23. It seems that the 9x23 Winchester is much hotter than the 9mm Largo. What's up with all these different loadings? Seems like this is a problem waiting to happen, if it hasn't already. What is the ranking of these cartridges in order of their pressures? Which of these rounds are safe to fire in my gun? I have also been led to believe that my pistol will chamber and fire shorter 9mm rounds, such as 9mm Luger, 9x18, 9x18 Makarov and .380, is this true? I have no intention of shooting shorter ammo, but inquiring minds want to know. Thank you for your attention in this matter. -->

12-29-2009, 11:04 PM	#2
cakes V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Northern Maine Posts: 230	Re: 9x23 ammo? Your Astra was designed for the 9mm Largo. If it was mine, I wouldn't shoot anything in it besides Largo or Bergmann loads. __________________ If at first you don't succeed, shoot, shoot again.

12-30-2009, 12:24 AM	#3
berto64 VMBB Admin Staff Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Owyhee County, Idaho Contributor Posts: 7,385	Re: 9x23 ammo? Eggszactly. I have some 400's and Star mod. B pistols and they all take 9mm Largo or the 9x23 Bergmann Bayard round. They are a hoot to shoot, much more powerful than 9x19 parabellum. Louder too. __________________ Be who you are & say what you will, Those that matter won't mind and those that mind don't matter. I'm a bitter clinger, One Nation Under God.

12-30-2009, 01:08 AM	#4
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: 9x23 ammo? Your gun would probably chamber and fire: .380-it will bulge the cases and won't cycle the slide. 9mm parabellum- it will bulge the cases. 9mm BB/largo/Steyr-will work fine. .38 auto-will work fine. .38 Super auto- the gun will probably blow up. 9X23 Winchester- the gun will definitely blow up. All these rounds MUST be fed from the magazine to work. None but the Largo/Bergmann/Steyr are recommended. Your gun will not chamber 9mm Makarov. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

12-30-2009, 02:46 PM	#5
berto64 VMBB Admin Staff Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Owyhee County, Idaho Contributor Posts: 7,385	Re: 9x23 ammo? Bill, I was given to understand that 38 Super was not recommended due to higher chamber pressures of the round. Possibly too high for the older metallurgy of the chambers. I know the 38 will fit perfectly in the chamber but it is also hotter than Largo. __________________ Be who you are & say what you will, Those that matter won't mind and those that mind don't matter. I'm a bitter clinger, One Nation Under God.

12-30-2009, 06:30 PM	#6
jondar V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 458	Re: 9x23 ammo? I've fired .38 ACP and 9mm Steyr, and a few .38 Super in my 400 with no troubles. Don't fire 9mm Luger as due to the shorter case, the only thing holding the round against the firing pin is the extractor and after a while you will have to replace the extractor due to stress. I've settled on the Largo cartridge and it is probably the one to shoot. I've read from some sources that the military Largo round made by the Santa Barbara arsenal in Spain is too hot for the pistol. Sadly, that's all that seems to be available. Blazer made a run of this cartridge a few years ago and some are still available, but do not know where.

12-31-2009, 08:36 PM	#7
belercous Former Guest Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 195	Re: 9x23 ammo? Thanks guys. I also have a Star model B chambered for the same round and I'll assume that it also should only shoot the Largo, B-B, and Steyr round. What guns fire the 9x23 Winchester round? I haven't even heard of it until I looked for ammo on the Astra.

12-31-2009, 10:53 PM	#8
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: 9x23 ammo? Your model B should be 9mm parabellum. The 9X23 was developed for the competition shooters. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

12-31-2009, 11:07 PM	#9
belercous Former Guest Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 195	Re: 9x23 ammo? Oops, my mistake. You are correct Bill, it was my Star Modelo Super I was thinking of. It has a pretty worn barrel, and as I recall, I could not find a replacement barrel for it. It wasn't a very accurate shooter. The Model "B" I haven't yet shot, but yes, it is a 9mm Luger.

01-01-2010, 09:07 AM	#10
Oldeyes V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 217	Re: 9x23 ammo WTF? There are perhaps others, but the only factory pistol that I ever saw that was chambered for the 9X23 Winchester round was a Walther PP Super. It was a heavy duty, 70's design, relatively compact pistol. I was told at the time that the pistol was designed to be a German police special operations weapon. Once you looked up the spec's for the factory Winchester ammo it looked as if it would do the special operations job in spades. Too bad the round never caught on over here and as a result the few loadings of commercial ammo were pretty pricey. The advent of the 10mm round seemingly did a pretty decent job of burying the 9X23 Winchester. The 9X23 Winchester round today occupies a specialty high powered 9mm niche in the marketplace.

01-01-2010, 09:44 PM	#11
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: 9x23 ammo? Whoa! The Walther PP Super was NEVER chambered for the 9x23 anything. It was chambered for the 9mm Ultra, aka the 9x18 Police. It has about the same case length as the 9mm Makarov, but the Makarov has a larger diameter and the cartridges are not interchangeable. The idea that pistols chambered for 9mm Largo will fire any 9mm and were designed to do so is a myth and a dangerous one. In fact, they were originally designed and intended to fire one cartridge, the 9mm Largo (9mm Bergmann-Bayard). The tapered 9mm Luger may wedge in the chamber, and the .380 ACP might be caught by the extractor, and the breech face might be large enough to take the semi-rimmed .38 ACP or .38 Super Auto, but that is a lot of "mights" and NONE of those rounds is correct, and might not even work. The Astra 400 was not designed to use any of them, not even, as one writer said, in an emergency. Some Star and Llama pistols made for export to South America and the U.S. were modified to accept .38 ACP; those are marked 9mm/38. Jim

01-01-2010, 10:45 PM	#12
belercous Former Guest Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 195	Re: 9x23 ammo? Jim: My Astra-Unceta is marked "9mm (38)". I realize this pistol was not intended to fire 380 or 9mm Parabellum, but I have read that they will fire them as the extractor holds the round against the breech instead of the round getting its head spacing from seating in the chamber. I know its not right, but I hear it will shoot the shorter cartidges. I also did not know the 9mm Parabellum was tapered, so I just learned something. (Ouch! My brain hurts.) Thanks.

01-02-2010, 06:17 AM	#13
Oldeyes V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 217	Re: 9x23 ammo? Jim K - Sorry sir, my bad. You are correct on the chambering for the Walther PP Super.. My somewhat aged 'recollector' had an excess of cob webbing in it. I confused the somewhat rare 9X23 Winchester with the even more rare 9mm Ultra. The Walther PP Super that I saw had a quite nice feel in the hand to it, but the scarcity of ammo was a real serious detractor to any potential thoughts of practical ownership. The only ammo that I ever saw for the Walther PP Super was some rather pricey FMJ rounds from Geco.

01-02-2010, 01:13 PM	#14
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: 9x23 ammo? I have a PP Super and a batch of that Geco ammo. The gun is not just a rechambered PP, it is bigger and heavier all around than the normal PP and the round seems pretty powerful, with recoil almost to the Makarov level. The design was in response to a (West) German police request for a pistol between the 9mm Kurz (.380) and the 9mm Parabellum in power. They succeeded but with conditions changing, the police decided to go with the 9mm P and the PP Supers were sold off. Jim

01-02-2010, 03:12 PM	#15
jondar V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 458	Re: 9x23 ammo? [QUOTE: I have a PP Super and a batch of that Geco ammo. The gun is not just a rechambered PP, it is bigger and heavier all around than the normal PP and the round seems pretty powerful, with recoil almost to the Makarov level Jim[/QUOTE] With all due respect, that's not very "powerful". There's only a hundred fps or so seperating the Makarov and the .380 ACP.