Health Care Bill Passed - The Firearms Forum

pinecone70 · 10-13-2009, 04:46 PM

Historic: $829 billion health care plan passes

WASHINGTON -- With support from a lone Republican, a key Senate committee Tuesday approved a middle-of-the-road health care plan that moves President Barack Obama's goal of wider and affordable coverage a giant step closer to becoming law.

Maine Republican Olympia Snowe said she was laying aside misgivings for now and voting to advance the bill, a sweeping $829-billion, 10-year health care remake that would help most Americans get coverage without creating a new government insurance plan. "When history calls, history calls," said Snowe.

Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., called his bill "a commonsense, balanced solution." A distance runner, Baucus has endured months of marathon meetings to get this far. It's not the finish line.

Health care legislation is expected to be on the Senate floor the week after next, said a spokesman for Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. But it won't be the Baucus bill. Reid will combine the Finance version with a more liberal proposal from the health committee -- with unpredictable results.

Baucus said in an interview with The Associated Press after the vote that he hopes his bill survives the merger process without major changes.

"The bottom line here is we need a final bill, a merged bill that gets 60 votes," Baucus said. "Our goal is to pass health care reform, not just talk about it."

The vote in the Finance Committee was 14-9, with Snowe joining all 13 Democrats in support. In a sign of long political battles ahead, every other Republican voted against it.

The ultimate fate of the legislation hinges on how lawmakers decide dozens of unresolved issues, from letting government sell insurance to abortion coverage. Even some senators who voted for the Baucus bill said they have concerns it will deliver on providing access to affordable coverage for all.

As Snowe made clear, "My vote today is my vote today. It doesn't forecast what my vote will be tomorrow."

The Baucus plan would, for the first time, require most Americans to purchase insurance and it also aims to hold down spiraling medical costs over the long term. Questions persist about whether it would truly provide access to affordable coverage, particularly for self employed people with solid middle class incomes.

The Finance Committee's top Republican, Chuck Grassley of Iowa, gave voice to the GOP's concerns about the bill, saying it was "moving on a slippery slope to more and more government control of health care."

"There's a lot in this bill that's just a consensus that needs to be done, but there are other provisions of this bill that raise a lot of questions," Grassley said, contending the legislation would mean higher costs for Americans.

The committee approval marked a personal victory for Baucus. Four other congressional committees finished their work before August, and for months all eyes had been on the Finance panel, whose moderate makeup most closely resembles the Senate as a whole.

Snowe kept Washington guessing about how she would vote until she announced it late in the debate Tuesday. Democrats, aware that Snowe could be the only Republican in Congress to vote for their health care overhaul, have spent months addressing her concerns about making coverage affordable and how to pay for it.

The committee's centrist legislation is also seen as the best building block for a compromise plan that could find favor on the Senate floor.

One of the biggest unanswered questions is whether the legislation would slow punishing increases in the nation's health care costs, particularly for the majority who now have coverage through employers. The insurance industry insists it would shift new costs onto those who have coverage.

Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf, under questioning by Republican senators, acknowledged that the bill's total impact on the nation's health care costs is still unknown. The CBO has been able to establish that the legislation would reduce federal government deficits, but Elmendorf said his staff has not had time to evaluate its effects on privately insured people. Government programs pay about half the nation's annual $2.5 trillion health care tab.

Once the Finance Committee has acted, the dealmaking can begin in earnest with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., working with White House staff, Baucus and others to blend the Finance bill with a more liberal version passed by the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

Baucus' bill includes consumer protections such as limits on copays and deductibles and relies on federal subsidies to help lower-income families purchase coverage. Insurance companies would have to take all comers, and people could shop for insurance within new state marketplaces called exchanges.

Medicaid would be expanded, and though employers wouldn't be required to cover their workers, they'd have to pay a penalty for each employee who sought insurance with government subsidies. The bill is paid for by cuts to Medicare providers and new taxes on insurance companies and others.

Unlike the other health care bills in Congress, Baucus' would not allow the government to sell insurance in competition with private companies, a divisive element sought by liberals.

Last-minute changes made subsidies more generous and softened the penalties for those who don't comply with a proposed new mandate for everyone to buy insurance. The latter change drew the ire of the health insurance industry, which said that without a strong and enforceable requirement, not enough people would get insured and premiums would jump for everyone else.

A major question mark for Reid's negotiations is whether he will include some version of a so-called public plan in the merged bill. Across the Capitol, House Democratic leaders are working to finalize their bill, which does contain a public plan, and floor action is expected in both chambers in coming weeks. If passed, the legislation would then go to a conference committee to reconcile differences.
(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

woolleyworm · 10-13-2009, 05:33 PM

These people are on crack ------ "Last-minute changes made subsidies more generous and softened the penalties for those who don't comply with a proposed new mandate for everyone to buy insurance. The latter change drew the ire of the health insurance industry, which said that without a strong and enforceable requirement, not enough people would get insured and premiums would jump for everyone else."

So, someone who is in good health can just convienently "forget" to sign up and not pay for awhile and then if they do get sick, can just go down and sign up without much worry about any penalty.

This whole bill stinks to high heaven, let's hope they get their heads pulled out before it actually gets officially passed. If it does get passed and when it fails miserably, I wonder how long it will take to undo the madness. There should at least be provision for an immediate end to it if Congress declares it a failure in the future.

obxned · 10-13-2009, 05:53 PM

"We, the People" are so screwed! Some form of this mess will pass, and unemployement will again go up. At some point very soon our whole economic house of cards will come tumbling down.

kingchip · 10-13-2009, 05:56 PM

Can't believe that Snowe sold out.

Kieran McCaig · 10-13-2009, 06:01 PM

Not a good day for you folks the market is show it the Canadian dollar is allmost at par again.

dge479 · 10-13-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingchip

Can't believe that Snowe sold out.

Why not?

artabr · 10-13-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingchip

Can't believe that Snowe sold out.

I can't believe that she thought about not selling out.

Art

PharmrJohn · 10-13-2009, 06:06 PM

About time. Over the last few months, things for me have been put into perspective regarding health care for those who don't have it. Even more than before. Bigtime.

I work in a prison. Pretty big place. Many, many offenders (the PC term for inmates). These offenders need health care. Granted, it ain't the government plan that our Senators enjoy, but it is something. They have free access to Doctors, Dentists, Pharmacists, ARNPs, PAs. They have access to free medications; there is a strict formulary that must be adhered to, and if we do not have it, we make sure something of equal efficacy is substituted in order to accomlish the goal. Now.........

Let's talk about those without health care who are free men and women. Let's talk about those who are without health care that work for a living. That pay taxes. That are not in jail. That contribute to this society instead of burden it. Let's give all those people a small break and make something happen. Something good and something right. All this talk about tax breaks for those who purchase health care on their own is hopeless. It will feed the status quo. No one will use it because they will still have to pony up the money up front, with hopes of getting a fraction of it back at year's end. In this economy (or any other for that matter), it ain't happenin'.

And of course the insurance companies are threatening to raise premiums. They are going to lobby against this because it is all about money to them. No secret there. Are the premiums going to go up? Yep. You bet. They do every year. I'm getting used to it. But that is OK, because I am one of the lucky ones that can go get my neck fused next year (again) because I have health insurance. Will people lose their health insurance? Don't know that either. But the government plan will be there if it happens. So a wash it will be (we can hope).

The point is in this rant is that those who are stuck in prison have a pretty good health plan. And they don't pay a penny for it. We do. Millions on the outside (many who work) don't have anything. Something is wrong with this picture. Bigtime. End rant.

kingchip · 10-13-2009, 06:30 PM

I have two employees with 5.5 and 4 kids respectably. They each get back 7K-9K each , every year. This bill will reduce their return by the fine, and they will still go get free healthcare at the ER.

If REAL reform was in order, Tort reform would have been first thing on the list.

PharmrJohn · 10-13-2009, 06:39 PM

I almost said, "Fact is....", but there are many facts here. Many of them are unfortunate. But this has been ignored for years. It was talked about in the seventies and then shelved. Then again in the ninties. And shelved. There has been plenty of opportunity for those in Washington to step up and do the right thing. Now, I don't know squat about Tort reform. Heard of it. But have NO idea what it is. Probably something about reforming Torts. Or torting reform. Or retorting forts. Hey....at least it's getting done. We don't know what the ramifications are going to be. Hell, even congress doesn't have a clear idea of that. .......and I suppose that would be true with whatever they put out there. Too many variables.

I do believe that it is going to go smoothly though. I am the eternal optimist. Look at the 2000 computer crisis. Did anything happen? Nope. But many were scared. Also, look at this 2012 Mayan calander piece of crapola that is going around. We will be ringing in 2013 with beer in hand. Guarantee it. Honestly, I think this is going to be a good thing. A few tweaks here and there and it will flow nicely. It has to. Because I am the eternal optimist.....and don't like to be proven wrong.

Bobitis · 10-13-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PharmrJohn

About time. Over the last few months, things for me have been put into perspective regarding health care for those who don't have it. Even more than before. Bigtime.

I work in a prison. Pretty big place. Many, many offenders (the PC term for inmates). These offenders need health care. Granted, it ain't the government plan that our Senators enjoy, but it is something. They have free access to Doctors, Dentists, Pharmacists, ARNPs, PAs. They have access to free medications; there is a strict formulary that must be adhered to, and if we do not have it, we make sure something of equal efficacy is substituted in order to accomlish the goal. Now.........

Let's talk about those without health care who are free men and women. Let's talk about those who are without health care that work for a living. That pay taxes. That are not in jail. That contribute to this society instead of burden it. Let's give all those people a small break and make something happen. Something good and something right. All this talk about tax breaks for those who purchase health care on their own is hopeless. It will feed the status quo. No one will use it because they will still have to pony up the money up front, with hopes of getting a fraction of it back at year's end. In this economy (or any other for that matter), it ain't happenin'.

And of course the insurance companies are threatening to raise premiums. They are going to lobby against this because it is all about money to them. No secret there. Are the premiums going to go up? Yep. You bet. They do every year. I'm getting used to it. But that is OK, because I am one of the lucky ones that can go get my neck fused next year (again) because I have health insurance. Will people lose their health insurance? Don't know that either. But the government plan will be there if it happens. So a wash it will be (we can hope).

The point is in this rant is that those who are stuck in prison have a pretty good health plan. And they don't pay a penny for it. We do. Millions on the outside (many who work) don't have anything. Something is wrong with this picture. Bigtime. End rant.

Something IS wrong.
I can't afford a cobra for my son, so his teeth don't get fixed. No Dr visits, no eye exams, no nothing. Yet my taxes pay for countless numbers of people that don't have insurance. Why can't my son get health care, while millions that pay no taxes get it for free?
This so called 'plan' will not do ANYTHING for him cuz he's a born American.
My taxes will go up, my care will get worse, and I'll be deeper in debt to help pay for care that he will be denied. On top of that, he'll be fined for not having insurance. Will everyone else? When an illegal goes to the Dr without insurance, will they be turned away? Will THEY be fined after the fact?

There is no legislative language in this bill. There wil be NO chance for public review. Transparancy my @$$!

This is government control at its finest.

This is just great. Felons get free med. Illegals get free med. Crack dealers get free med. Everyone that doesn't want to contribute gets free med.
John and Phil get coverage under my plan. Sue and Jane get coverage. The couple that claim to be 'partners' get coverage.

Where's the coverage for my 'straight', single, adult, out of work, trying to go to college, born in America, 19 year old son?!

Oh YEAH. Something's WRONG all right.
Too much governmental interferance! And now they want to control our life/death sentance.

How did Dr Smith put it in Lost in Space.....
"Trust me, Evil knows Evil".

BOHICA

JohnBrainard · 10-13-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PharmrJohn

About time. Over the last few months, things for me have been put into perspective regarding health care for those who don't have it. Even more than before. Bigtime.

I work in a prison. Pretty big place. Many, many offenders (the PC term for inmates). These offenders need health care. Granted, it ain't the government plan that our Senators enjoy, but it is something. They have free access to Doctors, Dentists, Pharmacists, ARNPs, PAs. They have access to free medications; there is a strict formulary that must be adhered to, and if we do not have it, we make sure something of equal efficacy is substituted in order to accomlish the goal. Now.........

Let's talk about those without health care who are free men and women. Let's talk about those who are without health care that work for a living. That pay taxes. That are not in jail. That contribute to this society instead of burden it. Let's give all those people a small break and make something happen. Something good and something right. All this talk about tax breaks for those who purchase health care on their own is hopeless. It will feed the status quo. No one will use it because they will still have to pony up the money up front, with hopes of getting a fraction of it back at year's end. In this economy (or any other for that matter), it ain't happenin'.

And of course the insurance companies are threatening to raise premiums. They are going to lobby against this because it is all about money to them. No secret there. Are the premiums going to go up? Yep. You bet. They do every year. I'm getting used to it. But that is OK, because I am one of the lucky ones that can go get my neck fused next year (again) because I have health insurance. Will people lose their health insurance? Don't know that either. But the government plan will be there if it happens. So a wash it will be (we can hope).

The point is in this rant is that those who are stuck in prison have a pretty good health plan. And they don't pay a penny for it. We do. Millions on the outside (many who work) don't have anything. Something is wrong with this picture. Bigtime. End rant.

Who should be responsible for providing health care to those who can't afford it?

Bobitis · 10-13-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBrainard

Who should be responsible for providing health care to those who can't afford it?

John, John, John....
Silly John....

People like us that can't afford our own!

Government health care vs individual health care.
If you can't afford it, someone else surely can.

If not, we just print more money. That just makes it that much worse.

'Hope' that helps. 'Change' is a good thing.
TRUST ME!

bcj1755 · 10-13-2009, 08:24 PM

PharmrJohn, I have to disagree with you over this one. I know a couple three people that have served time (thankfully, I never have. Although the way DHS is painting conservatives as a "threat," you never know

) and they ALL said the medical care they recieved was worse than what I got when I was in the USAF.

But, to show I'm fair, if you can show me exactly where in the Constitution Congress and POTUS are given the power to regulate and control my healthcare, I will wholeheartedly support Barry's AdolfCare.

JohnBrainard · 10-13-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobitis

John, John, John....
Silly John....

People like us that can't afford our own!

Government health care vs individual health care.
If you can't afford it, someone else surely can.

If not, we just print more money. That just makes it that much worse.

'Hope' that helps. 'Change' is a good thing.
TRUST ME!

I really want to know who PharmrJohn and others that support the healthcare bill think is responsible for providing health care to those who can't afford insurance. Hopefully someone will give me a serious answer. I'm doubtful, but they could prove me wrong.

topper · 10-14-2009, 04:30 AM

Get ready to open your billfords and let the governments take what they want....because they are going to get our money one way or the other. Costs will spiral out of sight and care will go to the dogs. Watch and see. The government can't even run a car giveaway with losing money, how in he!! are the going to adminster an effecient healthcare system? In short... they can't and won't!

We are at the end of our time!

JohnBrainard · 10-14-2009, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topper

Get ready to open your billfords and let the governments take what they want....because they are going to get our money one way or the other. Costs will spiral out of sight and care will go to the dogs. Watch and see. The government can't even run a car giveaway with losing money, how in he!! are the going to adminster an effecient healthcare system? In short... they can't and won't!

I can't believe, after seeing what happened to the health care system in Europe and Canada, that our elected officials would implement the same thing here. It's absolutely unbelievable.

PharmrJohn · 10-14-2009, 06:26 AM

Knew that was coming!!! But, again, that is OK. If the insurance industry won't step up and make provisions for those without (and you can bet your bottom dollar they surely won't), then it falls on the government. If it falls on the government, then it ultimately falls on us as taxpayers.

They are going to put something together like they always have.....with the approval of those we put in power. It is up to us to vote those people into office that will represent us (including Congress of course). That is where our voice is heard. They are not going to go door to door asking permission....that is what our representatives are for. And in terms of transparency, if I am not mistaken (and it may very well be), the bill is viewable by the public. At least earlier versions were.

So it comes down to basically an altruistic act made by all the taxpayers of the nation to fund this thing. I, personally, am willing to do it without hesitation. I don't mind paying taxes on things like this. All I want is to see a step forward on this matter, some resolution to an issue that has haunted us for decades. As I said, the reason I support this bill, is that something needs to be done. Something. Like the Medicare Part D bill that passed under Bush. That was fraught with shortcomings, but hey, it was something that the government did for our senior citizens that they deserved. And it did help. And I still support Medicare Part D. It's going on, what, eight years now? Something like that.

Just remember, the insurance companies will never step up to the plate on this. It is not in their best interest. Tax breaks on premiums will not do squat, because people need money up front. Lord knows even with my salary I would have a very, very hard time insuring my family.

So that is why I support it. Do I trust Obama? No. Do I trust Bush? No. Do I really trust any of them? You get the picture.

OK......knock me down.

Terry_P · 10-14-2009, 06:28 AM

Medicare is government run healthcare, will be bankrupt in 2017 without cuts or increased taxes. Anyone ever hear of medicare fraud? Of course not it's so efficiently run. Do any really feel the government can more efficiently run 1/7 of the economy than the private sector? Healthcare reform isn't about healthcare it's about controlling our lives. Do we need to change the system, sure you can start by deporting the illegal aliens that are milking the system dry. The politicans say that illegals won't be covered under the bills but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that once the bill is passed giving the plan to citizens that one stroke of the pen and 10-20 million illegals will be citizens.

If you are willing to accept further government control of our lives as a trade off for healthcare then I suspect 10 years from now when you have to wait years to get to see a doctor and your taxes are thru the roof to pay for the trillions required to administer a corrupt system then you will rethink your support. Too late.

Hardballer · 10-14-2009, 06:39 AM

This bill really isn't anything to worry about. What is coming next will make this seem like a Disney movie. We are not on the rebound, we are on a precipice and the government is pushing us off. Both sides. Like I said in another thread, if anyone thinks their vote in 2010 will mean anything, Republican or Democrat, they are smoking crack. Sooner or later it will probably sink in but for the most part, for most of society, it will be lambs to the slaughter.

Look around. This is not unprecedented. It has happened before. Will probably happen again.

Oil is taking off. Credit is non-existent. Banks are folding left and right. Just wait till next year. Peloser is talking VAT. Deflation has still not peaked by a long shot and once it's done (a one two punch) Inflation takes off like a rocket.

The things I've mentioned here are just the tip of the ice berg. There is so much more.

Anyone who is not taking care of their own future in what ever way they can afford; preparation, is fooling themselves and their loved ones.

This hopey, changey thing ain't workin' out so good. You see, reality is not a religion that motors on happily on faith but rather it deals in provable facts. Nowhere in all of history can be found any "facts" that back up the Hopey, changey dogma. Not for lack of examples but rather a preponderance of examples ending in misery and sorrow. Failure after failure after failure.

Click "The Right Sight" link below for tons of links, articles and information on every aspect of the near future.

Terry_P · 10-14-2009, 07:14 AM

HB: I have to agree on the economy. I have felt all along that the recovery is a "dead cat bounce" and that by just printing more money to solve every problem the government is heading back to the Carter years of stagflation. Inflation hasn't risen yet but it is inevitable. Healthcare is going to become a low priority but the added taxes will be a big problem in fact they will raise taxes (read Cap and Trade, Healthcare, stimulus, Social Security to the soon to be legal illegals, etc) in a declining economy and wonder why we free fall.

kingchip · 10-14-2009, 07:56 AM

Tort reform is quite simply reigning in the attorneys from practicing medicine, and leaving that to the Dr's.

JohnBrainard · 10-14-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PharmrJohn

Knew that was coming!!! But, again, that is OK. If the insurance industry won't step up and make provisions for those without (and you can bet your bottom dollar they surely won't), then it falls on the government. If it falls on the government, then it ultimately falls on us as taxpayers.

They are going to put something together like they always have.....with the approval of those we put in power. It is up to us to vote those people into office that will represent us (including Congress of course). That is where our voice is heard. They are not going to go door to door asking permission....that is what our representatives are for. And in terms of transparency, if I am not mistaken (and it may very well be), the bill is viewable by the public. At least earlier versions were.

So it comes down to basically an altruistic act made by all the taxpayers of the nation to fund this thing. I, personally, am willing to do it without hesitation. I don't mind paying taxes on things like this. All I want is to see a step forward on this matter, some resolution to an issue that has haunted us for decades. As I said, the reason I support this bill, is that something needs to be done. Something. Like the Medicare Part D bill that passed under Bush. That was fraught with shortcomings, but hey, it was something that the government did for our senior citizens that they deserved. And it did help. And I still support Medicare Part D. It's going on, what, eight years now? Something like that.

Just remember, the insurance companies will never step up to the plate on this. It is not in their best interest. Tax breaks on premiums will not do squat, because people need money up front. Lord knows even with my salary I would have a very, very hard time insuring my family.

So that is why I support it. Do I trust Obama? No. Do I trust Bush? No. Do I really trust any of them? You get the picture.

OK......knock me down.

It's not the responsibility of the insurance companies to step up and provide healthcare for people who can't afford it. They are a business. If they give out money without taking any in, they're going to go out of business. It's as simple as that.

Why does responsibility fall on the government? Why does it never fall on the individual to take care of himself?

You're saying that I should provide for the healthcare of those around me? I'm a taxpayer. I pay for the things government does. So, the healthcare of people who can't afford insurance is my responsibility. It's hard enough to provide for my own family, to give them a comfortable home to live in, to pay for my kids education, to keep food on the table and do this all on one income. I should pay for other people's healthcare too? How do you justify in your head that I'm responsible for paying for other people's healthcare? How do you justify taking money that I use to support my family with and give it to someone else? While you're answering these questions, answer this one... Where in the Constitution does it grant the U.S. Government the authority over American's healthcare?

ampaterry · 10-14-2009, 08:21 AM

The government already supplies an education - (public school system)
Housing (section 8) -
Food - (foodstamps, WIC's, school lunch programs)
Just exactly at what point are we the people going to say ENOUGH!!!
The government cannot be the sugar daddy to every man,woman and child in the country to supply everything that someone decides is a RIGHT.
Our RIGHTS are outlined in the Bill of Rights, and anything beyond that is up to US, not the government!

Healthcare my foot.
It is NOT a right, no matter who says they think it is.
It is not a righy any more than transportation is a right (Uncle Sam, give me a car!)
It is not a right any more than recreation is a right (Uncle Sam, pay for my week at Disneyworld!)
It is not a right any more than companionship is a right (Uncle Sam, pay my hooker bill!)

Why?
Simply because health-care is completely OPEN ENDED.
There is NO upper limit on how much health care anyone needs.
How about the fed paying for my lap-band surgery because I don't care enough to live on a diet? How about the fed paying for my heart-lung transplant because I don't care enough to quit smoking? How about the fed paying for my liver transplant because I don't care enough to quit getting drunk every night? How about the fed paying for my repeated by-pass surgeries because I refuse to stop eating deep-fat fried breaded pork chops for breakfast five times a week? How about the fed paying for my dental bills because I refuse to brush my teeth? How about the fed paying for my plastic surgery because I refuse to keep myself in shape?

There is a limit to what the government should do for us, folks.
And we are WAY past that limit already.

cycloneman · 10-14-2009, 08:30 AM

The potus says that our kids need to go to college and get educated. For what? To become a doctor and not make any money?

I guess that 87 year old woman in need of a hip replacement needs to start looking at her other options. She needs to take this little pill and stop being a nag to everybody. Don't you think she needs to do what is right for the country and the children and stop wasting their money?

After this bill passes there are many additives that can be added. You know like the death panels, and legalizing the world to be american.

Well now you know how things are going to get done.

How long do you think it will take for them to go after your guns? You know all those bills caused by gun crimes have to be stopped, dont you? Dont you want to do what is right for the country and your kids? Heaven knows we cant be spending useless money on avoidable gun injuries.

How long do you think it will be before radio and tv are totally run by the govt? It's for your own good. You dont know how to think. Need someone to do it for you.

This is not america any more. Better wake up

10-13-2009, 04:46 PM	#1
pinecone70 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Minnesota Gal! Posts: 4,730	Health Care Bill Passed Historic: $829 billion health care plan passes WASHINGTON -- With support from a lone Republican, a key Senate committee Tuesday approved a middle-of-the-road health care plan that moves President Barack Obama's goal of wider and affordable coverage a giant step closer to becoming law. Maine Republican Olympia Snowe said she was laying aside misgivings for now and voting to advance the bill, a sweeping $829-billion, 10-year health care remake that would help most Americans get coverage without creating a new government insurance plan. "When history calls, history calls," said Snowe. Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., called his bill "a commonsense, balanced solution." A distance runner, Baucus has endured months of marathon meetings to get this far. It's not the finish line. Health care legislation is expected to be on the Senate floor the week after next, said a spokesman for Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada. But it won't be the Baucus bill. Reid will combine the Finance version with a more liberal proposal from the health committee -- with unpredictable results. Baucus said in an interview with The Associated Press after the vote that he hopes his bill survives the merger process without major changes. "The bottom line here is we need a final bill, a merged bill that gets 60 votes," Baucus said. "Our goal is to pass health care reform, not just talk about it." The vote in the Finance Committee was 14-9, with Snowe joining all 13 Democrats in support. In a sign of long political battles ahead, every other Republican voted against it. The ultimate fate of the legislation hinges on how lawmakers decide dozens of unresolved issues, from letting government sell insurance to abortion coverage. Even some senators who voted for the Baucus bill said they have concerns it will deliver on providing access to affordable coverage for all. As Snowe made clear, "My vote today is my vote today. It doesn't forecast what my vote will be tomorrow." The Baucus plan would, for the first time, require most Americans to purchase insurance and it also aims to hold down spiraling medical costs over the long term. Questions persist about whether it would truly provide access to affordable coverage, particularly for self employed people with solid middle class incomes. The Finance Committee's top Republican, Chuck Grassley of Iowa, gave voice to the GOP's concerns about the bill, saying it was "moving on a slippery slope to more and more government control of health care." "There's a lot in this bill that's just a consensus that needs to be done, but there are other provisions of this bill that raise a lot of questions," Grassley said, contending the legislation would mean higher costs for Americans. The committee approval marked a personal victory for Baucus. Four other congressional committees finished their work before August, and for months all eyes had been on the Finance panel, whose moderate makeup most closely resembles the Senate as a whole. Snowe kept Washington guessing about how she would vote until she announced it late in the debate Tuesday. Democrats, aware that Snowe could be the only Republican in Congress to vote for their health care overhaul, have spent months addressing her concerns about making coverage affordable and how to pay for it. The committee's centrist legislation is also seen as the best building block for a compromise plan that could find favor on the Senate floor. One of the biggest unanswered questions is whether the legislation would slow punishing increases in the nation's health care costs, particularly for the majority who now have coverage through employers. The insurance industry insists it would shift new costs onto those who have coverage. Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf, under questioning by Republican senators, acknowledged that the bill's total impact on the nation's health care costs is still unknown. The CBO has been able to establish that the legislation would reduce federal government deficits, but Elmendorf said his staff has not had time to evaluate its effects on privately insured people. Government programs pay about half the nation's annual $2.5 trillion health care tab. Once the Finance Committee has acted, the dealmaking can begin in earnest with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., working with White House staff, Baucus and others to blend the Finance bill with a more liberal version passed by the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee. Baucus' bill includes consumer protections such as limits on copays and deductibles and relies on federal subsidies to help lower-income families purchase coverage. Insurance companies would have to take all comers, and people could shop for insurance within new state marketplaces called exchanges. Medicaid would be expanded, and though employers wouldn't be required to cover their workers, they'd have to pay a penalty for each employee who sought insurance with government subsidies. The bill is paid for by cuts to Medicare providers and new taxes on insurance companies and others. Unlike the other health care bills in Congress, Baucus' would not allow the government to sell insurance in competition with private companies, a divisive element sought by liberals. Last-minute changes made subsidies more generous and softened the penalties for those who don't comply with a proposed new mandate for everyone to buy insurance. The latter change drew the ire of the health insurance industry, which said that without a strong and enforceable requirement, not enough people would get insured and premiums would jump for everyone else. A major question mark for Reid's negotiations is whether he will include some version of a so-called public plan in the merged bill. Across the Capitol, House Democratic leaders are working to finalize their bill, which does contain a public plan, and floor action is expected in both chambers in coming weeks. If passed, the legislation would then go to a conference committee to reconcile differences. (Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.) __________________ _____________________________________________ "Miss Scarlet, in the library...with a revolver...." --> Last edited by pinecone70; 10-13-2009 at 05:48 PM..

10-13-2009, 05:33 PM	#2
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,883	Re: Health Care Bill Passed These people are on crack ------ "Last-minute changes made subsidies more generous and softened the penalties for those who don't comply with a proposed new mandate for everyone to buy insurance. The latter change drew the ire of the health insurance industry, which said that without a strong and enforceable requirement, not enough people would get insured and premiums would jump for everyone else." So, someone who is in good health can just convienently "forget" to sign up and not pay for awhile and then if they do get sick, can just go down and sign up without much worry about any penalty. This whole bill stinks to high heaven, let's hope they get their heads pulled out before it actually gets officially passed. If it does get passed and when it fails miserably, I wonder how long it will take to undo the madness. There should at least be provision for an immediate end to it if Congress declares it a failure in the future. __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

10-13-2009, 05:53 PM	#3
obxned Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,342	Re: Health Care Bill Passed "We, the People" are so screwed! Some form of this mess will pass, and unemployement will again go up. At some point very soon our whole economic house of cards will come tumbling down. __________________ Proud member of a North Carolina Committee of Safety "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Stand on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

10-13-2009, 05:56 PM	#4
kingchip Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Marble Falls, Texas Posts: 541	Re: Health Care Bill Passed Can't believe that Snowe sold out.

10-13-2009, 06:01 PM	#5
Kieran McCaig Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: canada Posts: 1,469	Re: Health Care Bill Passed Not a good day for you folks the market is show it the Canadian dollar is allmost at par again. __________________ My 2 cents worth is only.183 with exc hange.

10-13-2009, 06:06 PM	#8
PharmrJohn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Western Washington Posts: 975	Re: Health Care Bill Passed About time. Over the last few months, things for me have been put into perspective regarding health care for those who don't have it. Even more than before. Bigtime. I work in a prison. Pretty big place. Many, many offenders (the PC term for inmates). These offenders need health care. Granted, it ain't the government plan that our Senators enjoy, but it is something. They have free access to Doctors, Dentists, Pharmacists, ARNPs, PAs. They have access to free medications; there is a strict formulary that must be adhered to, and if we do not have it, we make sure something of equal efficacy is substituted in order to accomlish the goal. Now......... Let's talk about those without health care who are free men and women. Let's talk about those who are without health care that work for a living. That pay taxes. That are not in jail. That contribute to this society instead of burden it. Let's give all those people a small break and make something happen. Something good and something right. All this talk about tax breaks for those who purchase health care on their own is hopeless. It will feed the status quo. No one will use it because they will still have to pony up the money up front, with hopes of getting a fraction of it back at year's end. In this economy (or any other for that matter), it ain't happenin'. And of course the insurance companies are threatening to raise premiums. They are going to lobby against this because it is all about money to them. No secret there. Are the premiums going to go up? Yep. You bet. They do every year. I'm getting used to it. But that is OK, because I am one of the lucky ones that can go get my neck fused next year (again) because I have health insurance. Will people lose their health insurance? Don't know that either. But the government plan will be there if it happens. So a wash it will be (we can hope). The point is in this rant is that those who are stuck in prison have a pretty good health plan. And they don't pay a penny for it. We do. Millions on the outside (many who work) don't have anything. Something is wrong with this picture. Bigtime. End rant.

10-13-2009, 06:30 PM	#9
kingchip Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Marble Falls, Texas Posts: 541	Re: Health Care Bill Passed I have two employees with 5.5 and 4 kids respectably. They each get back 7K-9K each , every year. This bill will reduce their return by the fine, and they will still go get free healthcare at the ER. If REAL reform was in order, Tort reform would have been first thing on the list.

10-13-2009, 06:39 PM	#10
PharmrJohn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Western Washington Posts: 975	Re: Health Care Bill Passed I almost said, "Fact is....", but there are many facts here. Many of them are unfortunate. But this has been ignored for years. It was talked about in the seventies and then shelved. Then again in the ninties. And shelved. There has been plenty of opportunity for those in Washington to step up and do the right thing. Now, I don't know squat about Tort reform. Heard of it. But have NO idea what it is. Probably something about reforming Torts. Or torting reform. Or retorting forts. Hey....at least it's getting done. We don't know what the ramifications are going to be. Hell, even congress doesn't have a clear idea of that. .......and I suppose that would be true with whatever they put out there. Too many variables. I do believe that it is going to go smoothly though. I am the eternal optimist. Look at the 2000 computer crisis. Did anything happen? Nope. But many were scared. Also, look at this 2012 Mayan calander piece of crapola that is going around. We will be ringing in 2013 with beer in hand. Guarantee it. Honestly, I think this is going to be a good thing. A few tweaks here and there and it will flow nicely. It has to. Because I am the eternal optimist.....and don't like to be proven wrong.

10-13-2009, 08:24 PM	#14
bcj1755 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: A wretched hive of scum and villiany Posts: 4,357	Re: Health Care Bill Passed PharmrJohn, I have to disagree with you over this one. I know a couple three people that have served time (thankfully, I never have. Although the way DHS is painting conservatives as a "threat," you never know) and they ALL said the medical care they recieved was worse than what I got when I was in the USAF. But, to show I'm fair, if you can show me exactly where in the Constitution Congress and POTUS are given the power to regulate and control my healthcare, I will wholeheartedly support Barry's AdolfCare. __________________ History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace, and revolution continue on forever. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges - Cicero If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

10-14-2009, 04:30 AM	#16
topper Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: deep in the woods Posts: 748	Re: Health Care Bill Passed Get ready to open your billfords and let the governments take what they want....because they are going to get our money one way or the other. Costs will spiral out of sight and care will go to the dogs. Watch and see. The government can't even run a car giveaway with losing money, how in he!! are the going to adminster an effecient healthcare system? In short... they can't and won't! We are at the end of our time!

10-14-2009, 06:26 AM	#18
PharmrJohn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Western Washington Posts: 975	Re: Health Care Bill Passed Knew that was coming!!! But, again, that is OK. If the insurance industry won't step up and make provisions for those without (and you can bet your bottom dollar they surely won't), then it falls on the government. If it falls on the government, then it ultimately falls on us as taxpayers. They are going to put something together like they always have.....with the approval of those we put in power. It is up to us to vote those people into office that will represent us (including Congress of course). That is where our voice is heard. They are not going to go door to door asking permission....that is what our representatives are for. And in terms of transparency, if I am not mistaken (and it may very well be), the bill is viewable by the public. At least earlier versions were. So it comes down to basically an altruistic act made by all the taxpayers of the nation to fund this thing. I, personally, am willing to do it without hesitation. I don't mind paying taxes on things like this. All I want is to see a step forward on this matter, some resolution to an issue that has haunted us for decades. As I said, the reason I support this bill, is that something needs to be done. Something. Like the Medicare Part D bill that passed under Bush. That was fraught with shortcomings, but hey, it was something that the government did for our senior citizens that they deserved. And it did help. And I still support Medicare Part D. It's going on, what, eight years now? Something like that. Just remember, the insurance companies will never step up to the plate on this. It is not in their best interest. Tax breaks on premiums will not do squat, because people need money up front. Lord knows even with my salary I would have a very, very hard time insuring my family. So that is why I support it. Do I trust Obama? No. Do I trust Bush? No. Do I really trust any of them? You get the picture. OK......knock me down.

10-14-2009, 06:28 AM	#19
Terry_P Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NH Posts: 2,513	Re: Health Care Bill Passed Medicare is government run healthcare, will be bankrupt in 2017 without cuts or increased taxes. Anyone ever hear of medicare fraud? Of course not it's so efficiently run. Do any really feel the government can more efficiently run 1/7 of the economy than the private sector? Healthcare reform isn't about healthcare it's about controlling our lives. Do we need to change the system, sure you can start by deporting the illegal aliens that are milking the system dry. The politicans say that illegals won't be covered under the bills but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that once the bill is passed giving the plan to citizens that one stroke of the pen and 10-20 million illegals will be citizens. If you are willing to accept further government control of our lives as a trade off for healthcare then I suspect 10 years from now when you have to wait years to get to see a doctor and your taxes are thru the roof to pay for the trillions required to administer a corrupt system then you will rethink your support. Too late. __________________ NRA and NAHC Life "Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -Aristotle

10-14-2009, 06:39 AM	#20
Hardballer V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Smack dab in da middle Posts: 471	Re: Health Care Bill Passed This bill really isn't anything to worry about. What is coming next will make this seem like a Disney movie. We are not on the rebound, we are on a precipice and the government is pushing us off. Both sides. Like I said in another thread, if anyone thinks their vote in 2010 will mean anything, Republican or Democrat, they are smoking crack. Sooner or later it will probably sink in but for the most part, for most of society, it will be lambs to the slaughter. Look around. This is not unprecedented. It has happened before. Will probably happen again. Oil is taking off. Credit is non-existent. Banks are folding left and right. Just wait till next year. Peloser is talking VAT. Deflation has still not peaked by a long shot and once it's done (a one two punch) Inflation takes off like a rocket. The things I've mentioned here are just the tip of the ice berg. There is so much more. Anyone who is not taking care of their own future in what ever way they can afford; preparation, is fooling themselves and their loved ones. This hopey, changey thing ain't workin' out so good. You see, reality is not a religion that motors on happily on faith but rather it deals in provable facts. Nowhere in all of history can be found any "facts" that back up the Hopey, changey dogma. Not for lack of examples but rather a preponderance of examples ending in misery and sorrow. Failure after failure after failure. Click "The Right Sight" link below for tons of links, articles and information on every aspect of the near future. Last edited by Hardballer; 10-14-2009 at 06:49 AM..

10-14-2009, 07:14 AM	#21
Terry_P Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NH Posts: 2,513	Re: Health Care Bill Passed HB: I have to agree on the economy. I have felt all along that the recovery is a "dead cat bounce" and that by just printing more money to solve every problem the government is heading back to the Carter years of stagflation. Inflation hasn't risen yet but it is inevitable. Healthcare is going to become a low priority but the added taxes will be a big problem in fact they will raise taxes (read Cap and Trade, Healthcare, stimulus, Social Security to the soon to be legal illegals, etc) in a declining economy and wonder why we free fall. __________________ NRA and NAHC Life "Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -Aristotle

10-14-2009, 07:56 AM	#22
kingchip Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Marble Falls, Texas Posts: 541	Re: Health Care Bill Passed Tort reform is quite simply reigning in the attorneys from practicing medicine, and leaving that to the Dr's.

10-14-2009, 08:21 AM	#24
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,282	Re: Health Care Bill Passed The government already supplies an education - (public school system) Housing (section 8) - Food - (foodstamps, WIC's, school lunch programs) Just exactly at what point are we the people going to say ENOUGH!!! The government cannot be the sugar daddy to every man,woman and child in the country to supply everything that someone decides is a RIGHT. Our RIGHTS are outlined in the Bill of Rights, and anything beyond that is up to US, not the government! Healthcare my foot. It is NOT a right, no matter who says they think it is. It is not a righy any more than transportation is a right (Uncle Sam, give me a car!) It is not a right any more than recreation is a right (Uncle Sam, pay for my week at Disneyworld!) It is not a right any more than companionship is a right (Uncle Sam, pay my hooker bill!) Why? Simply because health-care is completely OPEN ENDED. There is NO upper limit on how much health care anyone needs. How about the fed paying for my lap-band surgery because I don't care enough to live on a diet? How about the fed paying for my heart-lung transplant because I don't care enough to quit smoking? How about the fed paying for my liver transplant because I don't care enough to quit getting drunk every night? How about the fed paying for my repeated by-pass surgeries because I refuse to stop eating deep-fat fried breaded pork chops for breakfast five times a week? How about the fed paying for my dental bills because I refuse to brush my teeth? How about the fed paying for my plastic surgery because I refuse to keep myself in shape? There is a limit to what the government should do for us, folks. And we are WAY past that limit already. __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

10-14-2009, 08:30 AM	#25
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,401	Re: Health Care Bill Passed The potus says that our kids need to go to college and get educated. For what? To become a doctor and not make any money? I guess that 87 year old woman in need of a hip replacement needs to start looking at her other options. She needs to take this little pill and stop being a nag to everybody. Don't you think she needs to do what is right for the country and the children and stop wasting their money? After this bill passes there are many additives that can be added. You know like the death panels, and legalizing the world to be american. Well now you know how things are going to get done. How long do you think it will take for them to go after your guns? You know all those bills caused by gun crimes have to be stopped, dont you? Dont you want to do what is right for the country and your kids? Heaven knows we cant be spending useless money on avoidable gun injuries. How long do you think it will be before radio and tv are totally run by the govt? It's for your own good. You dont know how to think. Need someone to do it for you. This is not america any more. Better wake up __________________ Who are you going to serve today?