Forgiveness of Sins According to NT Christianity - following forum rules in this post

[Caneman]

First off, this post is not to tell people who is right or who is wrong- believe as your faith or lack of faith leads you, and that is right for you! I am not judging anyone, condemning anyone, being impolite to anyone, or telling anyone what to believe... according to the mods the definition of this forum is:

"...a forum dedicated to things of a spiritual nature. This is the place for... virtually ANY topic of a spiritual nature. But this is not the place to debate whose belief is right and whose is wrong. Be respectful of others beliefs, just as you expect them to be respectful of yours."

OK, as far as I can determine I am abiding my the mods terms for this thread... so here goes...



I throw out this discussion for conversation:

How are ones sins forgiven according to New Testament Christianity?

I would define New Testament Christianity as believing/interpreting sacred scripture from the New Testament and Old Testament, only. If you have a different type of Christianity that is fine also, but for this thread only the definition for NT Christianity is as stated.



Here is are a few verses from John 8 that I base my question on:

John Chapter 8 (NASB)

21Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”



So I see the real question is what does Jesus mean when He says "I am He"?

The footnote in my bible says here that Jesus is referencing the OT description of God to Himself as "I Am Who I Am". Several verses later, at the end of the chapter Jesus says:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.”

Most NT Christian scholars believe Jesus is saying here that He is God...



So, the question is, according to NT Christianity do you have to believe that Jesus is uncreated eternal God to be saved from your sins and receive eternal life???

.

[jack404]

If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7: 14


thats my stance in a nutshell

turning away from my previous wicked ways is a big part of that ,


If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
1 John 1: 9


and this

1 Timothy 2:3,4,6 - God our Savior desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. This is why Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all.

note the term Ransom

why ransom ?

if your a sinner your held by Satan and like a hostage

Christ's sacrifice pays the ransom and set's us free

no other requirements in any of this needed in my thoughts ,

God has done all the rest , FOR US.. we just have to mean our repentance , do our best to comply ( be good folks) and acknowledge He is Our Saviour , no money required , no signing in blood , no cutting anyones hands off

Christ paid for us to be free IF we wish to be free . end of story for me

[H-D]

Acts 2

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

I was taught this as The plan of salvation

but I come back to this often

1 Timothy 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

The mystery of godliness

[ampaterry]

I have emphasized the part I believe applies.

Matthew 19:23-26 (KJV);
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

[Python]

Originally Posted by Caneman

So, the question is, according to NT Christianity do you have to believe that Jesus is uncreated eternal God to be saved from your sins and receive eternal life???

.

YES.

[reflex1]

1 John 1:9 -- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all of our unrighteousness.

[Songman]

John 8 has Jesus talking to the Pharisees. The meaning of pharisees in Hebrew is 'set apart'. So He knows he is dealing with people who don't believe who He is. That is why He is telling them that they cannot go where He is going. Because only by believing in Jesus as the Son of God can you get to the Father. I'm not sure how to interpret 'Jesus is uncreated eternal God'... But if it is intended how I think it is, the answer is yes. Jesus' entire life was to come here to die on the cross and wash away our sins.

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by Songman

John 8 has Jesus talking to the Pharisees. The meaning of pharisees in Hebrew is 'set apart'. So He knows he is dealing with people who don't believe who He is. That is why He is telling them that they cannot go where He is going. Because only by believing in Jesus as the Son of God can you get to the Father. I'm not sure how to interpret 'Jesus is uncreated eternal God'... But if it is intended how I think it is, the answer is yes. Jesus' entire life was to come here to die on the cross and wash away our sins.

this is how I intended it in the OP from a NT Christian perspective:

part of what makes God who He is is that nobody/nothing created Him, and He has always existed in eternity past/future... in other words 'uncreated' and 'eternal'... here in John 8 it seems to me that He is claiming both of these attributes as God when He says that "before Abraham was born, I AM"... Jesus does this in a few other chapters of this book as well... John is my favorite book of the bible.

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by Python

YES.

^^^ What he said ^^^

AND------

John 1:1-4 (GW)
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was already with God in the beginning.
3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.

[Juker]

What they said, and yes.

[Caneman]

now this is interesting, what about the thief on the cross... there were two BGs there being executed along with Jesus, one ridiculed Jesus and the other revered Him, here is the account from Luke 23:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

pretty interesting because the reverent thief seems to saved by Jesus from his sins because Jesus tells him he will be in 'paradise', or heaven, with Him today... it is not entirely clear who this guy thought Jesus was... he refers to Jesus as a 'man', yet seems to imply that Jesus is the 'Messiah', or Christ (when he refers to Jesus coming in His Kingdom)... the Jews knew the Christ was God, by the Isaiah 9 prophesy and that He would rule in His kingdom:

Isaiah 9 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will [i]rest (N)on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore."

the thief on the cross also gives credence to so called 'death bed conversions'...

[Songman]

Yeah.. you can be saved at the last minute, if you have time. Personally, I don't want to take that chance. Besides, I don't feel like I am missing a thing because of my Christian life. Like Delmar said in O Brother Where Art Though "Come on in, boys, the water's fine..."

[jack404]

from teachings waaaaay back ( ask the scholars Psalms maybe? )

Ps:44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Ps:66:18: If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

but he knows your intent and holds it against you
now i forget how severe that gets , i think there was a cutting off somewhere later ..

so it can backfire , why play with the risk of damnation ?

folks subvert many things to justify what they do , its never right and it often has draw backs later , in faith Big ones ..

death bed conversions , believe in them totally.. seen that with my own eyes, a few times

wonderful thing ..

[Juker]

I knew a man a while back who loved to brag how his dad, who by all accounts was a 1st class a-hole, had "stuck by his guns" and denied Christ on his deathbed. He was proud that his father stood by what he believed. And I thought to myself, "What a wasted life. Now he's barking in hell, and you're proud of him.."

[Songman]

I've found the 'no atheists in a foxhole' idiom to be more true. My ex-father-in-law was always saying he didn't believe in God. As a retired college president in CA, he just thought he was too intellectual to believe in such a thing. So I just tried to have discussions with him and share my faith and hopefully be able to strike a chord in him. He called me one day and had a little health scare and I had to take him to the hospital. They admitted him and put him straight into ICU for a week. Luckily, it turned out to be nothing more than a conflict of two medicines that he was taking from two different doctors. But I can tell you that I heard him mention God several times that week. And if he mentioned Him out loud, you can imagine how often he was talking to him through prayer. Of course, after the scare went away so did the admission of Christ. But it gives me hope that he may still come around. There are just so many ways of sudden death that you don't always get the chance though...

[bakerconch]

I have been tortured with longing to believe... and the yearning grows stronger
the more cogent the intellectual difficulties stand in the way. Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

1 Corinthians 1:27, God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty.

It does soom foolish to believe that out sins can be forgiven and never come back to the mind of God. It may also be very hard for some super intellectual minds to comprehend, but all it takes is the smallest ammount of faith to overcome the doubt.
Thank you Lord for your great forgiveness!

[vytoland]

you shall suffer for your sins....and suffer proper.

[jack404]

Originally Posted by bakerconch

I have been tortured with longing to believe... and the yearning grows stronger
the more cogent the intellectual difficulties stand in the way. Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

1 Corinthians 1:27, God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty.

It does soom foolish to believe that out sins can be forgiven and never come back to the mind of God. It may also be very hard for some super intellectual minds to comprehend, but all it takes is the smallest ammount of faith to overcome the doubt.
Thank you Lord for your great forgiveness!

Amen

[hogger129]

I thought you had to repent for your sins. Idk I'm Catholic so what my religion believes is probably old and people don't believe it anymore.

[hogger129]

It does soom foolish to believe that out sins can be forgiven and never come back to the mind of God. It may also be very hard for some super intellectual minds to comprehend, but all it takes is the smallest ammount of faith to overcome the doubt.
Thank you Lord for your great forgiveness!

Well it depends if you're honestly remorseful for what ya did. I believe there are some sins that are unforgivable. Such as murder.

[hogger129]

Originally Posted by Juker

I knew a man a while back who loved to brag how his dad, who by all accounts was a 1st class a-hole, had "stuck by his guns" and denied Christ on his deathbed. He was proud that his father stood by what he believed. And I thought to myself, "What a wasted life. Now he's barking in hell, and you're proud of him.."

Some people think that because God doesn't pop out and grant three wishes that there is no God. I believe in God. I mean I'm a healthy person, I have a family, I have a roof over my head, I live in the greatest country in the world, I can eat every day, I can afford to go to school, I have people that care about me. I think it's pretty obvious that there IS a God and that he's blessed me already.

[jack404]

Originally Posted by hogger129

I thought you had to repent for your sins. Idk I'm Catholic so what my religion believes is probably old and people don't believe it anymore.

yep repentance is a big part of it

[Python]

Originally Posted by hogger129

I believe there are some sins that are unforgivable. Such as murder.

The only "unforgivable sin" is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

[ampaterry]

You are absolutely correct, Python.

Although WE may be unable to forgive something like murder, God can, and does.

[Juker]

I have read commentaries where some Christians are convinced that once we are saved, we no longer need to confess our sins to God. This doesn't jive with the Scripture. Confession of sin should be a daily/hourly part of our spiritual life, for when Paul wrote, "If WE confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - he was speaking to Christians at the time ("we"). Confession of sin is good for the soul - as Terry and I shared a few weeks ago, we can never be sinless, but we can strive to sin less.

I was chatting with my son this weekend about the classes of sin. We can't always control sins of the mind (hate, anger, arrogance, bitterness), but we have total control over the others: sins of the tongue (lying), sins of the hand (physical sins against another) and sins of the flesh (sexual sins). While Christ paid the penalty on the cross for all the sins of all men, we aren't alleviated from confessing those sins. And we must still pay the piper for sins that put us on the wrong side of man's law.

Excellent thread, BTW.