is there any hope for a cheap pistol. - The Firearms Forum

josh · 10-04-2004, 05:24 PM

Hi Im new here and have a few questions.
I have a lorcin model L380 380 caliber automatic. Gun was real cheap and really shiny so it caught my eye. I dont expect miracles in accuracy but reliable feeding would be nice.
The gunshops around here wont touch it and all say a cheap pistol wont be reliable. I can accept that but is there any way to make it even a little better?It is almost worthless as a trade in so I plan to keep it. it would be nice if it did more than shine.
That beaing said i am in the market for a reliable automatic pistol. I kind of have my heart set on a 45 in the cz or eaa witness.
Any thoughts? Are these a good choice?

Any and all opinions are welcome. Even throw it in the river .

Remington597 · 10-04-2004, 06:41 PM

The Lorcin is a nightmare, please get rid of it as soon as possible. Trade it in. Expect about $35 in trade.

If your budget is in the $250 or less category., then I would recommend the following:

1. CZ52 7.62 x 25
2. Russian or Bulgarian Makarov.
3. Kel Tec P11 9mm
4. Bersa Thunder. .380ACP
5. Llamma Micromax .45ACP

These are my best recommendations for you in the $250 or less budget range NIB.

josh · 10-04-2004, 07:32 PM

thanks for the info. I was looking at a llama but it made me nervous cuz it was so cheap. i got offered 40 for the lorcin. woohoo LOL.
The lorcin is just cheap right?It isnt prone to explode in my hand or anything like that is it?

Remington597 · 10-04-2004, 07:39 PM

There have been known instances of them exploding, along with Ravens, Davis Cobras, and Bryco Jennings. The quality of construction is exceedingly poor and the metal quality is horrific. I would take the $40 and apply it as trade equity toward the Llama or any of the others mentioned. Bersa-Llama is a very reputable Spanish gunmaker and they are manufactured now in Argentina
. I've been shooting them for years with no problems, I would also strongly recommend the Kel Tec P11.

Marlin · 10-04-2004, 09:37 PM

My son has a Bulgarian Makarov which shoots well and appears to be a fine little pistol.

Remington597 · 10-05-2004, 05:56 AM

Marlin:
I have one also, and the Makarov is indestructable, just like the CZ. When it comes to price and dependability, they are hard to beat.

Wadcutter · 10-05-2004, 07:29 PM

You can pick up a Ruger p90 .45 for under 300 bucks if you don't mind a used pistol. A bit bulky but works every time.

Hydra Shok · 10-05-2004, 10:03 PM

If you are looking for a affordable .45 check out a Firestorm or LLama. The first new handgun I bought was a goverment model Firestorm .45 and it cost me $300 out the door. I have over 1000 rounds of mostly FMJ but a few HP's and only had about three of the HP's keep the slide from going into battery, so I only shoot FMJ's thru it, but hey it's a big ol bullet. Now if you really want something, save up and buy you a Glock before some of these others around here try to talk you out of it.

Here is a pic of my Firestorm and my Glock.

josh · 10-06-2004, 04:48 PM

Thanks for all the help. I have been looking at a lot of stuff online. That llama looks like it might be just the ticket. The pricing on the web is also way lower than the cz. Which is good cuz that is money i can save for my next one.
I havent been able to find any info on the makarov though. Does anyone have a link?

Remington597 · 10-06-2004, 04:58 PM

Sure, go into any gunshop. I will bet you that they will have a Makarov. I have never been to a gunshop that did not have one or had access to one. If there are none close by.
You will need to look one up and do an FFL transfer.
www.auctionarms.com
www.gunsamerica.com
Also, here is another great page. -- www.makarov.com

Huck Finn · 10-10-2004, 02:57 AM

Hey there,
I just picked up a Bersa Thunder .380 as a BUG. I paid $209 for it, brand new at the gun store & I have to say, so far I'm really impressed with it. So I did some checking on the net and it looks like I'm not alone. It shoots well, it hides easily, it's lightweight and I haven't had it jam yet even with JHP. I have to admit, I've only fired about 250 rounds so far, but I think you'll be really happy with it.
Good Luck,
Huck Finn

Huck Finn · 10-10-2004, 03:03 AM

P.S.
I forgot to add that the Bersa has a lot of built in safeties. It has a thumb safety, a decocker & a safety that will disengage the trigger when the mag is removed. It's a well thought out little pistol!

Remington597 · 10-10-2004, 12:26 PM

I firmly agree with you on the Bersa Thunder ,and its fun to shoot as well. I would also recommend another PPK clone to folks that shoots almost identically to the Bersa Thunder, and is made my a sister company. It is the .22LR equivalent of the Bersa Thunder, its the Firestorm .22LR semi auto.
Try it., here it is: I use CCI Stingers in it and it also feeds Blazer .22LR . This Firestorm is the identical Bersa Thunder and is also available in .380ACP as well as the .22LR, but the .22LR is easier on the pocket book as far as plinking target practice.

.

Glocker · 10-20-2004, 09:35 PM

If you want reliable, get a Glock.

Just bought a new G19 today.

rjjrwi · 10-23-2004, 07:10 PM

just got a used Ruger p89 off of a ********* auction , gun is in like new condition , even with the shipping and the transfer fees on my end i only have $279 in the gun and it shoots really nice

stash247 · 10-31-2004, 01:21 PM

If you make the move to a .45, please consider a 1911 pattern pistol first.
Accessories, spares, etc are as rife for the pistol as for a small block chevy, and priced the same way. It's popular because it works!
I'm not putting down Llama, Star, or other "look alikes", but by the time you buy mags, grips, etc for them, you will have spent as much, or more, than you'd have spent on a Colt.
Just a thought...

Remington597 · 10-31-2004, 06:54 PM

I think a Firestorm , Llama , and others will yield you all the accessories in the world and you will not even approach 1/2 the price of a Colt. Colt is phenomenal, but when comparing price, I think its a poor comparison, even with all the accessories put together, for the budget conscious consumer, Kel Tec, Llama, Bersa, and Firestorms; offer viable and dependable alternatives, but to compare price , its not even close. IMHO.

stash247 · 10-31-2004, 08:40 PM

I bought a Star PD years ago, as a used pistol, and shot the heck out of it; it shot center, and reliably. Mags were 30 bucks each, then! Any 1911 pattern gun, whether colt, springfield, auto ordinance, kimber, etc will use the same 5 buck, surplus mags, that you can find in any gunshow.
My Officer's model, and three Detonics pistols, will, too.
Sights, sears, triggers, and such are almost non-existant for the Star, Llama, Ballester Molina, etc pistols.
Best compromise, in my book, might be a 1922 Argentine , as it is a Colt, thru and thru, and ofte priced a $300-350 after haggling a bit.
No disrespect intended to you, Remington, or to the pistols, just that I hate making the parts because they can't be bought!
Hope this clarifies my prior post.... Terry

Hydra Shok · 10-31-2004, 09:52 PM

Copied from www.firestorm-sgs.com

1911 compatibility list:

COLT 1911 Parts Compatibility List

The following after-market 1911 parts will work on the Llama Max I 45 L/F and C/F, Llama Max II IX-C and IX-D, MiniMax, MiniMax II and MiniMax Sub-Compact; FireStorm 45 Government, Compact and Mini Compact Models (older style Llama IX-A,B):

Barrel Bushing
Guide Rod Assembly
Springs (Recoil, Hammer and Sear)
Trigger
Hammer
Main Spring Housing
Barrel Link and Pin
Bushing Type Compensators
Hammer Strut
Sear and Sear Disconnect
Rear Sight (may require the removal of the firing pin safety - depends on the sight)
Red Dot Sight and Mount (may require ejector and ejector port modifications)
Beavertail Grip Safety (not quite interchangeable, but the standard one can be reshaped to allow for a higher grip)
Magazine (7 and 8 shot Max I C/F,L/F and IX-A,B and FireStorm Gov't/Compact only)

All the above parts require gunsmithing fit and assembly along with the proper double checks for function and safety.

· Pachmayer makes a Signature grip for all Llama Max I C/F,L/F and Llama IX-A,B; FireStorm Gov't,Compact models.
· Chip McCormick extra round magazines can be used in Large, Compact and Officers Frame single stack models

stash247 · 11-01-2004, 10:58 PM

Seems to qualify as a Colt clone; you are reinforcing my point,tho I truly didn't know the Star bunch had "bought In" so to speak.
Point is exactly the same, however

Neil · 11-03-2004, 09:22 PM

want a cheap handgun...........my first one was a .22lr Browning Buckmark.....was like 25o -3 bills
shoots 500rnds for 12 bucks......very fun. but no defense weapon.
happy hunting
oh if your looking for an affordable .45 I picked up a Sprifield Armory GI.45 Champion for 450. not bad for a 1911.
My s&w 442 was over 500 but also not to bad in the scheme of things

Neil.

BlkHawk73 · 11-07-2004, 07:22 AM

Those pot-metal little Lorcins and theirtype are a gun that is useful only during one of those "__________ for guns" offers that sometimes occur. Regardless of what is gven in trade, you make out.
As far as an affordable auto, I'd also reccommend a Rugr. Quite affordable and rugged as he!!. Also they have great cust service if any thing ever does come up. They have the P90 and P97 as well as the new P945.
I know of one person that bought a 45 Firestorm because it was a cheap 1911. Well, it was cheap alright and about the worst shooting gun I've ever seen.
Like him, you simply learned that you get what you pay for. Chaulk one up as a lesson learned.

josh · 11-07-2004, 09:05 AM

Yeah it seems all the features i want are only available on higher dollar pistols. looks like ill be saving for a while. I am seriously considering the arcus copies of the bowning high power though. they seem to have most of the features I like and are cheap. i have read nothing but glowing reviews of them so far. but i have my heart set on a 45 so i havent decided to go for the 9mm yet.

russlate · 12-06-2004, 02:36 PM

Check out CDNN Investments. They often have police trade ins.

If you can go with a revolver, there are decent Colts and Smiths out there with ugly outsides but perfect insides for $175 to 200 plus $25 shipping and $25 for local dealer transfer fee.

Colonel Plink · 12-07-2004, 08:06 PM

My wife's carry piece is a Bulgarian Mak. It's one of them thar fancy ones with a chrome slide. That is a wonderful pistol. Another one that impressed the daylights outta me is my buddy's Firestorm in 45acp. It's really accurate and cost under $400. Trouble with it is, a spare mag is $50 or better. Oh yeah, 1,000 rounds of boxer-primed hardball for the Makarov was under $150 delivered. Can't beat it.

10-04-2004, 05:24 PM	#1
josh V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 56	is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Hi Im new here and have a few questions. I have a lorcin model L380 380 caliber automatic. Gun was real cheap and really shiny so it caught my eye. I dont expect miracles in accuracy but reliable feeding would be nice. The gunshops around here wont touch it and all say a cheap pistol wont be reliable. I can accept that but is there any way to make it even a little better?It is almost worthless as a trade in so I plan to keep it. it would be nice if it did more than shine. That beaing said i am in the market for a reliable automatic pistol. I kind of have my heart set on a 45 in the cz or eaa witness. Any thoughts? Are these a good choice? Any and all opinions are welcome. Even throw it in the river . -->

10-04-2004, 06:41 PM	#2
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. The Lorcin is a nightmare, please get rid of it as soon as possible. Trade it in. Expect about $35 in trade. If your budget is in the $250 or less category., then I would recommend the following: 1. CZ52 7.62 x 25 2. Russian or Bulgarian Makarov. 3. Kel Tec P11 9mm 4. Bersa Thunder. .380ACP 5. Llamma Micromax .45ACP These are my best recommendations for you in the $250 or less budget range NIB. Last edited by Remington597; 10-04-2004 at 06:46 PM..

10-04-2004, 07:32 PM	#3
josh V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 56	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. thanks for the info. I was looking at a llama but it made me nervous cuz it was so cheap. i got offered 40 for the lorcin. woohoo LOL. The lorcin is just cheap right?It isnt prone to explode in my hand or anything like that is it?

10-04-2004, 07:39 PM	#4
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. There have been known instances of them exploding, along with Ravens, Davis Cobras, and Bryco Jennings. The quality of construction is exceedingly poor and the metal quality is horrific. I would take the $40 and apply it as trade equity toward the Llama or any of the others mentioned. Bersa-Llama is a very reputable Spanish gunmaker and they are manufactured now in Argentina . I've been shooting them for years with no problems, I would also strongly recommend the Kel Tec P11. Last edited by Remington597; 10-04-2004 at 07:46 PM..

10-04-2004, 09:37 PM	#5
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,853	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. My son has a Bulgarian Makarov which shoots well and appears to be a fine little pistol. __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

10-05-2004, 05:56 AM	#6
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Marlin: I have one also, and the Makarov is indestructable, just like the CZ. When it comes to price and dependability, they are hard to beat.

10-05-2004, 07:29 PM	#7
Wadcutter Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas Posts: 20	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. You can pick up a Ruger p90 .45 for under 300 bucks if you don't mind a used pistol. A bit bulky but works every time.

10-05-2004, 10:03 PM	#8
Hydra Shok Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chasing my Seven Year Old Posts: 724	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. If you are looking for a affordable .45 check out a Firestorm or LLama. The first new handgun I bought was a goverment model Firestorm .45 and it cost me $300 out the door. I have over 1000 rounds of mostly FMJ but a few HP's and only had about three of the HP's keep the slide from going into battery, so I only shoot FMJ's thru it, but hey it's a big ol bullet. Now if you really want something, save up and buy you a Glock before some of these others around here try to talk you out of it. Here is a pic of my Firestorm and my Glock. Attached Images __________________ If you can't impress them with intelligence, baffle them with BS American by birth, Southern by the grace of God Do unto others before they do unto you "Most importantly, when the time comes to pull the trigger, shoot to kill." ~ Robert H. Boatman Glock 17, 19, 26 Kel Tec 3AT

10-06-2004, 04:48 PM	#9
josh V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 56	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Thanks for all the help. I have been looking at a lot of stuff online. That llama looks like it might be just the ticket. The pricing on the web is also way lower than the cz. Which is good cuz that is money i can save for my next one. I havent been able to find any info on the makarov though. Does anyone have a link?

10-06-2004, 04:58 PM	#10
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Sure, go into any gunshop. I will bet you that they will have a Makarov. I have never been to a gunshop that did not have one or had access to one. If there are none close by. You will need to look one up and do an FFL transfer. www.auctionarms.com www.gunsamerica.com Also, here is another great page. -- www.makarov.com

10-10-2004, 02:57 AM	#11
Huck Finn Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 833	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Hey there, I just picked up a Bersa Thunder .380 as a BUG. I paid $209 for it, brand new at the gun store & I have to say, so far I'm really impressed with it. So I did some checking on the net and it looks like I'm not alone. It shoots well, it hides easily, it's lightweight and I haven't had it jam yet even with JHP. I have to admit, I've only fired about 250 rounds so far, but I think you'll be really happy with it. Good Luck, Huck Finn __________________ Tiocfaidh Ár Lá ! "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

10-10-2004, 03:03 AM	#12
Huck Finn Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 833	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. P.S. I forgot to add that the Bersa has a lot of built in safeties. It has a thumb safety, a decocker & a safety that will disengage the trigger when the mag is removed. It's a well thought out little pistol! __________________ Tiocfaidh Ár Lá ! "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

10-10-2004, 12:26 PM	#13
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. I firmly agree with you on the Bersa Thunder ,and its fun to shoot as well. I would also recommend another PPK clone to folks that shoots almost identically to the Bersa Thunder, and is made my a sister company. It is the .22LR equivalent of the Bersa Thunder, its the Firestorm .22LR semi auto. Try it., here it is: I use CCI Stingers in it and it also feeds Blazer .22LR . This Firestorm is the identical Bersa Thunder and is also available in .380ACP as well as the .22LR, but the .22LR is easier on the pocket book as far as plinking target practice. . Last edited by Remington597; 10-10-2004 at 12:27 PM..

10-20-2004, 09:35 PM	#14
Glocker V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 136	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. If you want reliable, get a Glock. Just bought a new G19 today.

10-23-2004, 07:10 PM	#15
rjjrwi V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: western Wi Posts: 217	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. just got a used Ruger p89 off of a ********* auction , gun is in like new condition , even with the shipping and the transfer fees on my end i only have $279 in the gun and it shoots really nice

10-31-2004, 01:21 PM	#16
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. If you make the move to a .45, please consider a 1911 pattern pistol first. Accessories, spares, etc are as rife for the pistol as for a small block chevy, and priced the same way. It's popular because it works! I'm not putting down Llama, Star, or other "look alikes", but by the time you buy mags, grips, etc for them, you will have spent as much, or more, than you'd have spent on a Colt. Just a thought... __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

10-31-2004, 06:54 PM	#17
Remington597 Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,201	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. I think a Firestorm , Llama , and others will yield you all the accessories in the world and you will not even approach 1/2 the price of a Colt. Colt is phenomenal, but when comparing price, I think its a poor comparison, even with all the accessories put together, for the budget conscious consumer, Kel Tec, Llama, Bersa, and Firestorms; offer viable and dependable alternatives, but to compare price , its not even close. IMHO.

10-31-2004, 08:40 PM	#18
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. I bought a Star PD years ago, as a used pistol, and shot the heck out of it; it shot center, and reliably. Mags were 30 bucks each, then! Any 1911 pattern gun, whether colt, springfield, auto ordinance, kimber, etc will use the same 5 buck, surplus mags, that you can find in any gunshow. My Officer's model, and three Detonics pistols, will, too. Sights, sears, triggers, and such are almost non-existant for the Star, Llama, Ballester Molina, etc pistols. Best compromise, in my book, might be a 1922 Argentine , as it is a Colt, thru and thru, and ofte priced a $300-350 after haggling a bit. No disrespect intended to you, Remington, or to the pistols, just that I hate making the parts because they can't be bought! Hope this clarifies my prior post.... Terry __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

10-31-2004, 09:52 PM	#19
Hydra Shok Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chasing my Seven Year Old Posts: 724	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Copied from www.firestorm-sgs.com 1911 compatibility list: COLT 1911 Parts Compatibility List The following after-market 1911 parts will work on the Llama Max I 45 L/F and C/F, Llama Max II IX-C and IX-D, MiniMax, MiniMax II and MiniMax Sub-Compact; FireStorm 45 Government, Compact and Mini Compact Models (older style Llama IX-A,B): Barrel Bushing Guide Rod Assembly Springs (Recoil, Hammer and Sear) Trigger Hammer Main Spring Housing Barrel Link and Pin Bushing Type Compensators Hammer Strut Sear and Sear Disconnect Rear Sight (may require the removal of the firing pin safety - depends on the sight) Red Dot Sight and Mount (may require ejector and ejector port modifications) Beavertail Grip Safety (not quite interchangeable, but the standard one can be reshaped to allow for a higher grip) Magazine (7 and 8 shot Max I C/F,L/F and IX-A,B and FireStorm Gov't/Compact only) All the above parts require gunsmithing fit and assembly along with the proper double checks for function and safety. · Pachmayer makes a Signature grip for all Llama Max I C/F,L/F and Llama IX-A,B; FireStorm Gov't,Compact models. · Chip McCormick extra round magazines can be used in Large, Compact and Officers Frame single stack models __________________ If you can't impress them with intelligence, baffle them with BS American by birth, Southern by the grace of God Do unto others before they do unto you "Most importantly, when the time comes to pull the trigger, shoot to kill." ~ Robert H. Boatman Glock 17, 19, 26 Kel Tec 3AT

11-01-2004, 10:58 PM	#20
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Seems to qualify as a Colt clone; you are reinforcing my point,tho I truly didn't know the Star bunch had "bought In" so to speak. Point is exactly the same, however __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

11-03-2004, 09:22 PM	#21
Neil Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Stanwood washington Posts: 678	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. want a cheap handgun...........my first one was a .22lr Browning Buckmark.....was like 25o -3 bills shoots 500rnds for 12 bucks......very fun. but no defense weapon. happy hunting oh if your looking for an affordable .45 I picked up a Sprifield Armory GI.45 Champion for 450. not bad for a 1911. My s&w 442 was over 500 but also not to bad in the scheme of things Neil. __________________ God Bless America, This Great Land we call HOME.

11-07-2004, 07:22 AM	#22
BlkHawk73 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Maine Posts: 292	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Those pot-metal little Lorcins and theirtype are a gun that is useful only during one of those "__________ for guns" offers that sometimes occur. Regardless of what is gven in trade, you make out. As far as an affordable auto, I'd also reccommend a Rugr. Quite affordable and rugged as he!!. Also they have great cust service if any thing ever does come up. They have the P90 and P97 as well as the new P945. I know of one person that bought a 45 Firestorm because it was a cheap 1911. Well, it was cheap alright and about the worst shooting gun I've ever seen. Like him, you simply learned that you get what you pay for. Chaulk one up as a lesson learned.

11-07-2004, 09:05 AM	#23
josh V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 56	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Yeah it seems all the features i want are only available on higher dollar pistols. looks like ill be saving for a while. I am seriously considering the arcus copies of the bowning high power though. they seem to have most of the features I like and are cheap. i have read nothing but glowing reviews of them so far. but i have my heart set on a 45 so i havent decided to go for the 9mm yet.

12-06-2004, 02:36 PM	#24
russlate Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Walker Lake, NV: Flyway of the Loons Posts: 5	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. Check out CDNN Investments. They often have police trade ins. If you can go with a revolver, there are decent Colts and Smiths out there with ugly outsides but perfect insides for $175 to 200 plus $25 shipping and $25 for local dealer transfer fee.

12-07-2004, 08:06 PM	#25
Colonel Plink V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: NE Colorado Posts: 68	Re: is there any hope for a cheap pistol. My wife's carry piece is a Bulgarian Mak. It's one of them thar fancy ones with a chrome slide. That is a wonderful pistol. Another one that impressed the daylights outta me is my buddy's Firestorm in 45acp. It's really accurate and cost under $400. Trouble with it is, a spare mag is $50 or better. Oh yeah, 1,000 rounds of boxer-primed hardball for the Makarov was under $150 delivered. Can't beat it. __________________ "When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro" - -Hunter S. Thompson