Bushing?? - The Firearms Forum

shooter · 11-08-2006, 03:52 PM

i see some with it and some without..what is its purpose anyway??

Shooter45 · 11-08-2006, 08:11 PM

Are you referring to the barrel bushing ??

shooter · 11-08-2006, 09:45 PM

yes the one on the end of the barrel

LDBennett · 11-09-2006, 07:51 AM

The barrel bushing locates the front of the barrel. It must be tight enough to always locate the barrel exactly the same with each cycling of the action. If not then the accuracy will not be good. If too tight the action of the recoiling slide will be slowed and the reliability of function will be impacted. There is a fine line between too tight and tight enough.

Add to this that the barrel tilts down in the back and the barrel bushing has to allow for this. If its bearing surface is too wide the barrel cannot tilt down effortlessly and the gun will not reliably fuction in recoil. To accomodate the tilt the top and bottom bearing edges are thinned.

Several types of bushing have been used in semiautos and in some the bushing is just part of the slide and is not removable. For 1911's we have solid bushes, and bushes with extended fingers that push on the barrel to help keep the barrel centered. Other approaches with rolling elements has even been tried. The key to accuaracy is the fit. To get accuracy high the bushing is usually bought under sized and machined or polished to size with grinding compound between the barrel and the bushings bearing surfaces, keeping in mind the required tilt of the barrel. Also the fit of the bushing to the slide must be tight. Again the oversized bushing is fit to the slide with grinding compound. This hand fittting makes for accuracy but if too tight it can effect the reliability of function in recoil operation.

LDBennett

Crpdeth · 11-09-2006, 09:08 AM

LD

What you are saying about the bushing being too tight makes alot of sense, I purposefully bought a bushing that was too tight in order to fit it myself...I polished the barrel and the bushing just untill they didnt "catch" upon a slow release of the slide, thinking that I wanted the best fit possible and I got it, the slide will return to full battery even upon a slow release but after your post I'm wondering if it may still be a bit tight.

On the other hand, would you agree that the simple act of using the piece would soon work the barrel and bushing into a perfect fit?

Crpdeth

shooter · 11-09-2006, 04:09 PM

http://www.marstar.ca/gf-BUL/index-M5.shtm

u saw these and was wondering about it..im not an expert but it didnt look like a typical 1911 as far as the front goes..im not buying one or anything i just thought it looked different from 99.9% of all 1911s ive seen and thats why i was asking about it

Shooter45 · 11-09-2006, 04:55 PM

It's called a bull or bushingless barrel.

LDBennett · 11-09-2006, 05:08 PM

Crpdeth:

This is a polymer lower frame gun with a steel slide. The functionality of the bush must be machined, cast, or forged into the inside of the slide near the front with the same limitation and requirements of a regular removable bush but it just is not removable. It looks weird with the emptiness around the barrel in the front of the slide. I looked at the .pdf page for disassembly and the barrel is cylindrical so it must be as I stated above (??).

shooter:

It might wear in but in the process it might be a bit problematical about feeding too. As the barrel heats up it will expand a little and it may start dragging on the bush. I'd shoot it hard and fast for a session at the range and see if it is too tight. If it starts to have feeding problems you know exactly what to do.

The two most important things for 1911 accuracy are both barrel related:Keep the bush tight and the slide returning to battery exactly the same way every time. The bush does the first and a complete accurizing does the second with the tighten of the slide to frame fit and the precision fitting of a regular link. But the easy way is to use a different spring guide: the Dwyer (spelling?) Group Gripper as available from Brownells. This unique spring guide, with new special link, has a small leaf spring in it that pushes on the special link to force the barrel hard up into the bottom of the slide when the gun's slide is closed and consequently the slide up into the frame rails. This makes the relationship of the barrel to the frame and to the sights exactly the same with every shot. My Delta Elite groups decreased in size by 30% with the addition of this inexpensive guide and link. I also installed the oversized bush but had done that before installing the Group Gripper.

LDBennett

Shooter45 · 11-09-2006, 05:42 PM

Just so you know, I built my race gun using a Schumann bull barrel. The slide had to be cut at an angle that matched the angle of the cone shaped barrel. The front of the slide had to be squarred to fit flush with the compensator. It never had a problem dragging. Even after rapidly firing 3 full 24 round mags. The barrel would get hot on a long,fast stage. Still,no problem.

I never use a "group gripper" since I always hand fit the barrel lugs. I also use an over-sized slide stop and turn it down to fit. I guess the "group gripper" is an OK quick fix if you can't fit a barrel or take it to a competent pistolsmith. I don't have that problem and my 1911's will ALL hold tight groups.

LDBennett · 11-10-2006, 05:31 AM

Shooter45:

Fitting a bushing is not a big deal but the rest of the accurization that you mentioned is. The Group Gripper is $35 (short guide complete) or $50 (long guide complete) and both are drop in, no machining, no fitting parts. If you had to have a gunsmith do the work, you suggested is equivalent, (fit a long link) do you think it would be in the range of $35 to $50? I think not(??). Does it result in a group size reduction anywhere close to 30%? I don't know. Do you? Several, who have reported here, have been using the Group Gripper, some for tens of years, and have seen group size reductions in the realm that I have (30% reduction in size). Where can you get proven results like that for $35 to $50? Quick fix? Maybe, but it flat works and is inexpensive and it is proven many times over for long periods of time.

Extensively gunsmithed 1911's are all over the place. Everyone has to have a race gun. I suggest that for the rest of us that are more practical (and poorer) a fitted bush and a Group Gripper is a viable alternative with a proven track record. I and others don't NEED a race gun, but just WANT a better performing 1911.

I'm glad your bushingless 1911 is working for you. Here's to good shooting!

LDBennett

Shooter45 · 11-17-2006, 08:53 AM

LD, This may be an opportunity to perform a little test. I think I have a group gripper in my parts bin. I also have a friend with an old Colt that doesn't group very well.

I was going to have the barrel hood and barrel lugs built up at my local machine shop ( $20. ) and do the proper fitting. Then fit a barrel bushing.

I'll install the group gripper first , then fit the barrel bushing, then fit the barrel. I'll test for group between steps and see what kind of inprovements are made.

Oh, and the race gun was for IPSC competition "open" class. I only had to have it to win the class, which I did.

Proper barrel fitting can be done with a few hand tools and a little knowledge. No magic or great wealth involved. It's all about taking your time.

Crpdeth · 11-17-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooter45

LD, This may be an oppertunity to perform a little test.

I look forward to this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooter45

I also have a friend with an old Colt that doesn't group very well.

Me! is that me????

Crpdeth

LDBennett · 11-17-2006, 02:05 PM

Shooter45:

As in anything there are people out there who have a hard time field stripping a 1911 let alone fitting a bushing, lengthen barrel hood, etc. Then there are those that are so intimidated about working on any gun that they would not touch it but would take it to a gunsmith (read expensive). The good thing about the Group Gripper is that it literally is a drop-in modification and I think even these people can do it at the time they clean the gun.

I look forward to your results. I did my Delta Elite over a period of time. I fit the bush first then added the Group Gripper so my group size reduction was from a base line of a fitted bush gun that I shot regularly at paper, when my shooting skills were at their peak. I don't know if the bush has to be there to get the 30% reduction in group size I saw. All the pushing at the back of the barrel might be in vain if the front can float around (???). Will just the Group Gripper offer any improvement? I don't know. Is there a way you can test for that too?

LDBennett

Shooter45 · 11-17-2006, 02:26 PM

Sure. I'll install the Group Gripper first and test from there.

crpdeth, We will get that Colt grouping good.

358 winchester · 11-18-2006, 06:39 AM

I wish I was closer to Shooter45 I would hang out in his gun room with my 45 and everytime he worked on his I would toss mine on the bench and say
"hey do that to mine too"

southernshooter · 11-18-2006, 07:04 AM

11-08-2006, 03:52 PM	#1
shooter V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NC Posts: 79	Bushing?? i see some with it and some without..what is its purpose anyway?? -->

11-08-2006, 08:11 PM	#2
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,752	Re: Bushing?? Are you referring to the barrel bushing ??

11-08-2006, 09:45 PM	#3
shooter V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NC Posts: 79	Re: Bushing?? yes the one on the end of the barrel

11-09-2006, 07:51 AM	#4
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,712	Re: Bushing?? The barrel bushing locates the front of the barrel. It must be tight enough to always locate the barrel exactly the same with each cycling of the action. If not then the accuracy will not be good. If too tight the action of the recoiling slide will be slowed and the reliability of function will be impacted. There is a fine line between too tight and tight enough. Add to this that the barrel tilts down in the back and the barrel bushing has to allow for this. If its bearing surface is too wide the barrel cannot tilt down effortlessly and the gun will not reliably fuction in recoil. To accomodate the tilt the top and bottom bearing edges are thinned. Several types of bushing have been used in semiautos and in some the bushing is just part of the slide and is not removable. For 1911's we have solid bushes, and bushes with extended fingers that push on the barrel to help keep the barrel centered. Other approaches with rolling elements has even been tried. The key to accuaracy is the fit. To get accuracy high the bushing is usually bought under sized and machined or polished to size with grinding compound between the barrel and the bushings bearing surfaces, keeping in mind the required tilt of the barrel. Also the fit of the bushing to the slide must be tight. Again the oversized bushing is fit to the slide with grinding compound. This hand fittting makes for accuracy but if too tight it can effect the reliability of function in recoil operation. LDBennett

11-09-2006, 09:08 AM	#5
Crpdeth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Location: Location Contributor Posts: 8,247	Re: Bushing?? LD What you are saying about the bushing being too tight makes alot of sense, I purposefully bought a bushing that was too tight in order to fit it myself...I polished the barrel and the bushing just untill they didnt "catch" upon a slow release of the slide, thinking that I wanted the best fit possible and I got it, the slide will return to full battery even upon a slow release but after your post I'm wondering if it may still be a bit tight. On the other hand, would you agree that the simple act of using the piece would soon work the barrel and bushing into a perfect fit? Crpdeth __________________ Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. ~Eric Hoffer

11-09-2006, 04:09 PM	#6
shooter V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NC Posts: 79	Re: Bushing?? http://www.marstar.ca/gf-BUL/index-M5.shtm u saw these and was wondering about it..im not an expert but it didnt look like a typical 1911 as far as the front goes..im not buying one or anything i just thought it looked different from 99.9% of all 1911s ive seen and thats why i was asking about it

11-09-2006, 04:55 PM	#7
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,752	Re: Bushing?? It's called a bull or bushingless barrel.

11-09-2006, 05:08 PM	#8
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,712	Re: Bushing?? Crpdeth: This is a polymer lower frame gun with a steel slide. The functionality of the bush must be machined, cast, or forged into the inside of the slide near the front with the same limitation and requirements of a regular removable bush but it just is not removable. It looks weird with the emptiness around the barrel in the front of the slide. I looked at the .pdf page for disassembly and the barrel is cylindrical so it must be as I stated above (??). shooter: It might wear in but in the process it might be a bit problematical about feeding too. As the barrel heats up it will expand a little and it may start dragging on the bush. I'd shoot it hard and fast for a session at the range and see if it is too tight. If it starts to have feeding problems you know exactly what to do. The two most important things for 1911 accuracy are both barrel related:Keep the bush tight and the slide returning to battery exactly the same way every time. The bush does the first and a complete accurizing does the second with the tighten of the slide to frame fit and the precision fitting of a regular link. But the easy way is to use a different spring guide: the Dwyer (spelling?) Group Gripper as available from Brownells. This unique spring guide, with new special link, has a small leaf spring in it that pushes on the special link to force the barrel hard up into the bottom of the slide when the gun's slide is closed and consequently the slide up into the frame rails. This makes the relationship of the barrel to the frame and to the sights exactly the same with every shot. My Delta Elite groups decreased in size by 30% with the addition of this inexpensive guide and link. I also installed the oversized bush but had done that before installing the Group Gripper. LDBennett Last edited by LDBennett; 11-09-2006 at 05:10 PM..

11-09-2006, 05:42 PM	#9
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,752	Re: Bushing?? Just so you know, I built my race gun using a Schumann bull barrel. The slide had to be cut at an angle that matched the angle of the cone shaped barrel. The front of the slide had to be squarred to fit flush with the compensator. It never had a problem dragging. Even after rapidly firing 3 full 24 round mags. The barrel would get hot on a long,fast stage. Still,no problem. I never use a "group gripper" since I always hand fit the barrel lugs. I also use an over-sized slide stop and turn it down to fit. I guess the "group gripper" is an OK quick fix if you can't fit a barrel or take it to a competent pistolsmith. I don't have that problem and my 1911's will ALL hold tight groups.

11-10-2006, 05:31 AM	#10
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,712	Re: Bushing?? Shooter45: Fitting a bushing is not a big deal but the rest of the accurization that you mentioned is. The Group Gripper is $35 (short guide complete) or $50 (long guide complete) and both are drop in, no machining, no fitting parts. If you had to have a gunsmith do the work, you suggested is equivalent, (fit a long link) do you think it would be in the range of $35 to $50? I think not(??). Does it result in a group size reduction anywhere close to 30%? I don't know. Do you? Several, who have reported here, have been using the Group Gripper, some for tens of years, and have seen group size reductions in the realm that I have (30% reduction in size). Where can you get proven results like that for $35 to $50? Quick fix? Maybe, but it flat works and is inexpensive and it is proven many times over for long periods of time. Extensively gunsmithed 1911's are all over the place. Everyone has to have a race gun. I suggest that for the rest of us that are more practical (and poorer) a fitted bush and a Group Gripper is a viable alternative with a proven track record. I and others don't NEED a race gun, but just WANT a better performing 1911. I'm glad your bushingless 1911 is working for you. Here's to good shooting! LDBennett

11-17-2006, 08:53 AM	#11
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,752	Re: Bushing?? LD, This may be an opportunity to perform a little test. I think I have a group gripper in my parts bin. I also have a friend with an old Colt that doesn't group very well. I was going to have the barrel hood and barrel lugs built up at my local machine shop ( $20. ) and do the proper fitting. Then fit a barrel bushing. I'll install the group gripper first , then fit the barrel bushing, then fit the barrel. I'll test for group between steps and see what kind of inprovements are made. Oh, and the race gun was for IPSC competition "open" class. I only had to have it to win the class, which I did. Proper barrel fitting can be done with a few hand tools and a little knowledge. No magic or great wealth involved. It's all about taking your time.

11-17-2006, 02:05 PM	#13
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,712	Re: Bushing?? Shooter45: As in anything there are people out there who have a hard time field stripping a 1911 let alone fitting a bushing, lengthen barrel hood, etc. Then there are those that are so intimidated about working on any gun that they would not touch it but would take it to a gunsmith (read expensive). The good thing about the Group Gripper is that it literally is a drop-in modification and I think even these people can do it at the time they clean the gun. I look forward to your results. I did my Delta Elite over a period of time. I fit the bush first then added the Group Gripper so my group size reduction was from a base line of a fitted bush gun that I shot regularly at paper, when my shooting skills were at their peak. I don't know if the bush has to be there to get the 30% reduction in group size I saw. All the pushing at the back of the barrel might be in vain if the front can float around (???). Will just the Group Gripper offer any improvement? I don't know. Is there a way you can test for that too? LDBennett

11-17-2006, 02:26 PM	#14
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,752	Re: Bushing?? Sure. I'll install the Group Gripper first and test from there. crpdeth, We will get that Colt grouping good.

11-18-2006, 06:39 AM	#15
358 winchester TFF Admin Staff Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pensacola Fl. area Posts: 7,335	Re: Bushing?? I wish I was closer to Shooter45 I would hang out in his gun room with my 45 and everytime he worked on his I would toss mine on the bench and say "hey do that to mine too" __________________ Administrator & Owner RangeDay.com Proud, White, Heterosexual, Gun Owning, Southern American, Christian. Any question about where I stand?

11-18-2006, 07:04 AM	#16
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Bushing?? __________________ Only you can see this