.38 Midrange wadcutter? - The Firearms Forum

Mark · 09-12-2006, 07:18 PM

Is there anybody currently building a 1911 style pistol chambered for the .38 special? What I have in mind is a target pistol like the Colt National Match in .38 wadcutter.
Mark

22WRF · 09-12-2006, 08:25 PM

You need a Smith 52, just no new ones

southernshooter · 09-12-2006, 09:34 PM

Yea the 52's are nice

stash247 · 09-14-2006, 02:06 AM

Having owned a couple, I would say folks are touting you in the right direction.
They will hit anything you can see, if you hold well.
I own a couple of Colt "wad guns", at more than twice the price of the Smith, and they shoot no better.

hoser1 · 09-14-2006, 11:34 PM

Para came out with a new 38 super. Sure beats a 38 special!

billt · 09-19-2006, 05:59 PM

This is my Smith & Wesson Model 52 chambered for the .38 Special Cartridge. I'm not sure but I thought S&W dropped production of these guns not too long ago. It shoots like dream. 3 grains of Bullseye on top of a 148 Gr. wadcutter is just enough to kick the slide open and drop the brass at your side, not halfway across the range. Smith isn't necessarly noted for their autos, but this and the Model 41 are 2 of the best I own. Bill T.

stash247 · 09-20-2006, 12:01 AM

[QUOTE=billt]

. 3 grains of Bullseye on top of a 148 Gr. wadcutter is just enough to kick the slide open
Based on three of these, I suggest either 2.7 Gr of Bullseye, or a better scale!
This was always the 'sweet' load, and a 'ragged hole' grouper, for me.

billt · 09-20-2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stash247

Based on three of these, I suggest either 2.7 Gr of Bullseye, or a better scale!
This was always the 'sweet' load, and a 'ragged hole' grouper, for me.

Are you saying .3 of a grain blows your groups open????? Bill T.

stash247 · 09-20-2006, 08:56 PM

Bill: I use that load because of the accuracy it has given me for many years, in the 52; upping the charge to 3.0 Gr increases the charge by 11%, and the recoil, as well.
2.7 gr of Bullseye gives full recoil in a clean pistol, and just barely 'bumps' the frame, with the slide, where 3.0 'raps' the slide, making recovery, out of the secondary recoil, when the slide stops suddenly, slower.

AGB · 09-21-2006, 08:27 AM

Bill and Stash,

I do not use bullseye because it is not easily available here, I do use CBC 216, that is the choice for reloading this ammo according to the CBC factory instructions. Went fron 2.9 to 2.3 when the gun stops cycling properly. Got the best results around 2.5. Have a couple 52's, one -1 and a -2. The -1 is well used, but still in good shape, and I fear going hard on in and spoil the gun. With more than 2.7 the gun shows more recoil and no improvements on the group size. I've been reloadong with this amount 2.5 grains and i'm quite happy to it.

stash247 · 09-21-2006, 07:58 PM

AGB; what are your muzzle velocities, if known, with these loads?
You just said what I did, about a powder I know nothing about, but my bet is 780-810 fps, for the 'sweet' load, and 830-850, for the 'banger'.

AGB · 09-22-2006, 11:26 AM

Stash247,

I have no acess to any timing device here. At once I found a table comparing the burning speed of our popular powders with the bullseye ones, but dunno where it is. Guess your numbers are quite close to reality.

stash247 · 09-22-2006, 10:15 PM

AGB, you found what I found; the 'sweet spot' in the load, and jumped on it, for the same reasons I did!
Different climate, different powder, but, same rules!
In a 1911, in .45 cal, with serious threats about, I'll gladly sacrifice a pistol, for immediate energy, and 'suck up' the recoil, as a cost of doing business!
This is a 'wad gun', designed only to put all the shots close together, and recoil is an adversary to that end; a load that shoots well, and puts the slide just far enough back, close, but not hitting, the frame, fully compressing the recoil spring, is the ultimate load, for rapid fire!
The empirical method you used yields no numbers, in velocity, but the results are obvious, to the shooter; the darned gun just keeps coming back to target!
Could we load, 'on the spring' for other calibers, their accuracy would improve, as well!

blackhawkkid308 · 10-23-2006, 03:37 PM

my 52-2 likes 2.7g bullseye with a 148g dewc.
bhk308

Shooter45 · 10-23-2006, 04:02 PM

Mark, the .38 wadcutter 1911 is still being built by Clark Custom Guns.

The link: www.clarkcustomguns.com

45Smashemflat · 10-24-2006, 08:18 AM

I was gunna mention the smith in LA as well. He makes great stuff. Them's some pretty 52's. What blue book on those these days?

Oneida Steve · 10-24-2006, 11:30 AM

The S&W Model 52 has become quite a pricey gun now that they are out of production.

Most shooters in the USA have stopped shooting a .38 caliber gun for bullseye competition. They use their .45s for both the .38 match and .45 match.

stash247 · 10-25-2006, 02:35 AM

Smash, have no idea about the bluebook price. I will buy every one I see, as all seem to be well cared for, when I find them at $600 US, or less.
They are certainly worth that money, if one deires a totally useless pistol for any purpose but punching paper (LOL), extremely well!
Aside from the intended purpose, and my last comment, the pistol might well make an excellent 'House gun', with a lot of liability intervention, as a sideline!
Being a 'Target gun', by design, and execution, nobody could really offer a 'Dirty Harry' mentality as a basis for some 'bad actor' having been shot in a 'home invasion' scenario, should it come to court. Just a thought.

45Smashemflat · 10-25-2006, 09:12 AM

The main thing that I recall on the 1911 versions was that the mags were finiky and expensive. Not sure I'll ever buy one, but it is a unique piece of hardware.

yellowf4 · 12-15-2006, 05:49 PM

I have thousands of rounds of 38 wadcutter loaded and they are just waiting for a nice 52 to come along. I can't find one of these great guns that anyone will part with for less than $1000 which is WAY too much. I have been looking for years with no luck. Anyone want to sell theirs?

stash247 · 12-15-2006, 08:57 PM

Yellow, Welcome!
I've just enough pistols, of the type, so likely won't be a seller, but always looking for good ammo, at the right price!
Cruise the gunshows; this stuff is out there, from estates, retiring shooters, etc, and can be had, on occasion, at incredibly right prices, if you negotiate well, and carry cash!
Last one I found was apparently seldom fired, judging from condition, and came with box and papers. Early gun, - nothing, a double action, locked out with a screw, to single action, built '61-63. Interesting, so I own another one!
The -1 guns are better shooters, by a small margin, owing to their purpose built action, and, could I only have one, my choice, built from '63-73.
All are fine arms, for their purpose.
Cruise the shows and buy yourself a 'forever' Christmas present!!!

southernshooter · 12-15-2006, 09:29 PM

Welcome Yellow

yellowf4 · 12-15-2006, 10:12 PM

Why thank you. Looks like a great site. I am a huge S&W fan. I have worked full time and part time for a local shop for the last 15 years as well as a history in LE so I am quite well versed in firearms of all types. I prefer revolvers to most autos, but am also a master class IPshooter. The only S&W I am missing is the 52 (at least of the ones I want) and to sum it up nicely, I truly believe you should have a t least one gun for every year of life....looks like I have my whole family covered well into their 80's....

On the ammo comment, since I have seen way too many blown up guns over the years due to "A great deal at a gun show!" I load all my own ammo in 28 different calibers at last count...Ok so I have issues. Thank you all for the welcome and if you hear of a deal on a lonely 52, let me know!

09-12-2006, 07:18 PM	#1
Mark V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 314	.38 Midrange wadcutter? Is there anybody currently building a 1911 style pistol chambered for the .38 special? What I have in mind is a target pistol like the Colt National Match in .38 wadcutter. Mark -->

09-12-2006, 08:25 PM	#2
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,255	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? You need a Smith 52, just no new ones __________________ NRA GOA CCRKBA Happiness is a warm barrel

09-12-2006, 09:34 PM	#3
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Yea the 52's are nice __________________ Only you can see this

09-14-2006, 02:06 AM	#4
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Having owned a couple, I would say folks are touting you in the right direction. They will hit anything you can see, if you hold well. I own a couple of Colt "wad guns", at more than twice the price of the Smith, and they shoot no better. __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

09-14-2006, 11:34 PM	#5
hoser1 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ark-La-Tex Posts: 271	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Para came out with a new 38 super. Sure beats a 38 special!

09-19-2006, 05:59 PM	#6
billt Former Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Glendale, Arizona Posts: 94	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? This is my Smith & Wesson Model 52 chambered for the .38 Special Cartridge. I'm not sure but I thought S&W dropped production of these guns not too long ago. It shoots like dream. 3 grains of Bullseye on top of a 148 Gr. wadcutter is just enough to kick the slide open and drop the brass at your side, not halfway across the range. Smith isn't necessarly noted for their autos, but this and the Model 41 are 2 of the best I own. Bill T.

09-20-2006, 12:01 AM	#7
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? [QUOTE=billt] . 3 grains of Bullseye on top of a 148 Gr. wadcutter is just enough to kick the slide open Based on three of these, I suggest either 2.7 Gr of Bullseye, or a better scale! This was always the 'sweet' load, and a 'ragged hole' grouper, for me. __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

09-20-2006, 08:56 PM	#9
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Bill: I use that load because of the accuracy it has given me for many years, in the 52; upping the charge to 3.0 Gr increases the charge by 11%, and the recoil, as well. 2.7 gr of Bullseye gives full recoil in a clean pistol, and just barely 'bumps' the frame, with the slide, where 3.0 'raps' the slide, making recovery, out of the secondary recoil, when the slide stops suddenly, slower. __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

09-21-2006, 08:27 AM	#10
AGB V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brasilia, DF, Brasil Posts: 144	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Bill and Stash, I do not use bullseye because it is not easily available here, I do use CBC 216, that is the choice for reloading this ammo according to the CBC factory instructions. Went fron 2.9 to 2.3 when the gun stops cycling properly. Got the best results around 2.5. Have a couple 52's, one -1 and a -2. The -1 is well used, but still in good shape, and I fear going hard on in and spoil the gun. With more than 2.7 the gun shows more recoil and no improvements on the group size. I've been reloadong with this amount 2.5 grains and i'm quite happy to it.

09-21-2006, 07:58 PM	#11
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? AGB; what are your muzzle velocities, if known, with these loads? You just said what I did, about a powder I know nothing about, but my bet is 780-810 fps, for the 'sweet' load, and 830-850, for the 'banger'. __________________ Don't start no s*t and there won't be none, Terry Last edited by stash247; 09-22-2006 at 01:28 AM..*

09-22-2006, 11:26 AM	#12
AGB V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brasilia, DF, Brasil Posts: 144	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Stash247, I have no acess to any timing device here. At once I found a table comparing the burning speed of our popular powders with the bullseye ones, but dunno where it is. Guess your numbers are quite close to reality.

09-22-2006, 10:15 PM	#13
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? AGB, you found what I found; the 'sweet spot' in the load, and jumped on it, for the same reasons I did! Different climate, different powder, but, same rules! In a 1911, in .45 cal, with serious threats about, I'll gladly sacrifice a pistol, for immediate energy, and 'suck up' the recoil, as a cost of doing business! This is a 'wad gun', designed only to put all the shots close together, and recoil is an adversary to that end; a load that shoots well, and puts the slide just far enough back, close, but not hitting, the frame, fully compressing the recoil spring, is the ultimate load, for rapid fire! The empirical method you used yields no numbers, in velocity, but the results are obvious, to the shooter; the darned gun just keeps coming back to target! Could we load, 'on the spring' for other calibers, their accuracy would improve, as well! __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

10-23-2006, 03:37 PM	#14
blackhawkkid308 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: pensacola florida Posts: 871	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? my 52-2 likes 2.7g bullseye with a 148g dewc. bhk308 __________________ 9-11-01 lest we forget AMEN

10-23-2006, 04:02 PM	#15
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,755	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Mark, the .38 wadcutter 1911 is still being built by Clark Custom Guns. The link: www.clarkcustomguns.com

10-24-2006, 08:18 AM	#16
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? I was gunna mention the smith in LA as well. He makes great stuff. Them's some pretty 52's. What blue book on those these days?

10-24-2006, 11:30 AM	#17
Oneida Steve Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,028	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? The S&W Model 52 has become quite a pricey gun now that they are out of production. Most shooters in the USA have stopped shooting a .38 caliber gun for bullseye competition. They use their .45s for both the .38 match and .45 match.

10-25-2006, 02:35 AM	#18
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Smash, have no idea about the bluebook price. I will buy every one I see, as all seem to be well cared for, when I find them at $600 US, or less. They are certainly worth that money, if one deires a totally useless pistol for any purpose but punching paper (LOL), extremely well! Aside from the intended purpose, and my last comment, the pistol might well make an excellent 'House gun', with a lot of liability intervention, as a sideline! Being a 'Target gun', by design, and execution, nobody could really offer a 'Dirty Harry' mentality as a basis for some 'bad actor' having been shot in a 'home invasion' scenario, should it come to court. Just a thought. __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

10-25-2006, 09:12 AM	#19
45Smashemflat Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,494	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? The main thing that I recall on the 1911 versions was that the mags were finiky and expensive. Not sure I'll ever buy one, but it is a unique piece of hardware.

12-15-2006, 05:49 PM	#20
yellowf4 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Reno NV Posts: 9	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? I have thousands of rounds of 38 wadcutter loaded and they are just waiting for a nice 52 to come along. I can't find one of these great guns that anyone will part with for less than $1000 which is WAY too much. I have been looking for years with no luck. Anyone want to sell theirs? Last edited by yellowf4; 12-15-2006 at 05:49 PM.. Reason: forgot to sign up for link

12-15-2006, 08:57 PM	#21
stash247 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central Texas Posts: 2,815	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Yellow, Welcome! I've just enough pistols, of the type, so likely won't be a seller, but always looking for good ammo, at the right price! Cruise the gunshows; this stuff is out there, from estates, retiring shooters, etc, and can be had, on occasion, at incredibly right prices, if you negotiate well, and carry cash! Last one I found was apparently seldom fired, judging from condition, and came with box and papers. Early gun, - nothing, a double action, locked out with a screw, to single action, built '61-63. Interesting, so I own another one! The -1 guns are better shooters, by a small margin, owing to their purpose built action, and, could I only have one, my choice, built from '63-73. All are fine arms, for their purpose. Cruise the shows and buy yourself a 'forever' Christmas present!!! __________________ Don't start no s**t and there won't be none, Terry

12-15-2006, 09:29 PM	#22
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Welcome Yellow __________________ Only you can see this

12-15-2006, 10:12 PM	#23
yellowf4 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Reno NV Posts: 9	Re: .38 Midrange wadcutter? Why thank you. Looks like a great site. I am a huge S&W fan. I have worked full time and part time for a local shop for the last 15 years as well as a history in LE so I am quite well versed in firearms of all types. I prefer revolvers to most autos, but am also a master class IPshooter. The only S&W I am missing is the 52 (at least of the ones I want) and to sum it up nicely, I truly believe you should have a t least one gun for every year of life....looks like I have my whole family covered well into their 80's.... On the ammo comment, since I have seen way too many blown up guns over the years due to "A great deal at a gun show!" I load all my own ammo in 28 different calibers at last count...Ok so I have issues. Thank you all for the welcome and if you hear of a deal on a lonely 52, let me know!